Local Chapter of Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence Releases Statement Regarding Arrest of Former Member
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Statement from the Eureka House of The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc., in response to the recent arrest of one of their former members:
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence Inc. is a leading-edge Order of queer and trans nuns in San Francisco, California. Since 1979, the Sisters have devoted themselves to community service, ministry, and promoting human rights through chapters worldwide.
In response to media reports of a former probationary member of the Eureka, California, house of The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence being arrested for indecent exposure last month, we humbly offer the following response, along with corrections to some factually incorrect statements that have been made in the press.
The Eureka House of The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence unreservedly condemns the behavior alleged in police reports. We are a global nonprofit organization dedicated to community service, fundraising, and activism on behalf of marginalized communities. To have anyone associated with us accused of such behavior is an embarrassment and a blight on our name.
The person arrested was in a probationary process to become a full member at one time but this process ended in October of 2020. They were not a member at the time of their arrest, as several media outlets have stated.
We have a long and complex process for admitting new members to our order and we take every step to be as certain as possible that anyone admitted as a fully-professed member will not bring dishonor to our order. We have a Misconduct and Grievance Resolution Process to ensure that any member who violates our policies, or the law, faces sanctions up to, and including expulsion. Fully professed members are mandated reporters who react with diligence in duty to the law in order to ensure the safety of our community.
Without minimizing the gravity of this situation, it is worth noting that our Order is hardly alone among religious, political and social service organizations in having former members who have been accused of behavior contrary to their stated values, often in much more serious and harmful ways, and sometimes working to conceal and thus enable that behavior over the course of years.
We offer our most profound apologies to the community for what happened and specifically to any individuals impacted by this inexcusable behavior. It is not representative of our Order, our values, or the hundreds of individuals who serve as Sisters.
We should also clarify that we do not profess hatred toward the Catholic church, or any other organization, as many have claimed. We stand for equity and inclusion and will unsparingly criticize those who condemn people solely because of their sexual orientation, race, color, religion, gender and gender expression, or national/ethnic origin. And sadly, that includes many religious and political organizations which have targeted the LGBTQ+ community. We are simply the latest in a long line of marginalized communities who have fought and sacrificed to ensure their dignity and rights as humans. We stand on the shoulders of giants and will continue to fight for our goal of a truly just, inclusive, and equitable society where a person’s worth is not measured according to another person’s faith.
The Sisters’ ministry began during the early days of the AIDS crisis in San Francisco, when people whose faiths and families had rejected them because of their sexual orientation were dying. We were among the first to raise money, provide support, and share safer-sex information in response to that epidemic, filling a needed void at a time when many government and religious organizations had turned their backs on an unfolding crisis.
In the decades since, the Sisters have grown into a global Order of largely-autonomous houses which serve their communities. Our membership is open to all, and we regularly partner with mainstream religious organizations and individuals who share our values of love and inclusion.
It is a mission that is especially important today, when legislatures are actively passing laws to restrict and eliminate freedom and personal expression of those with whom they disagree, from the right of consenting adults to love each other, to any woman’s right to control her health care decisions.
So it is particularly frustrating for us to have to address this accusation of inexcusable behavior at a time when we know many are seeking any way to marginalize and minimize us. We would ask our critics to consider whether all the current and former members of their own organizations are without sin before hurling stones at our entire organization based on the alleged behavior of a former member.
About the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc.
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc., is a leading-edge Order of queer and trans nuns who believe all people have a right to express their unique joy and beauty. Since their first appearance in San Francisco on Easter Sunday, 1979, the Sisters have devoted themselves to community service, ministry, and outreach to those on the edges and to promoting human rights, respect for diversity, and spiritual enlightenment. The Sisters use humor and irreverent wit to expose the forces of bigotry, complacency, and guilt that chain the human spirit. To learn more about the Sisters, visit their website, www.thesisters.org, or their Facebook and Instagram pages.
Note: The Daily Wire ran the story yesterday, however, John Chiv broke this story locally at the time of the incident.
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Apologies … I guess the national attention prompted the coverage.
Thank you.
I appreciate drag.
I do not appreciate people who hide behind it for their own misdirected satisfaction.
You dont? You may want to examen that thought. You appreciate drag? wink wink……I bet you do. Do you take your children to see the freaks? You know the hot ones who drag are all out picking up drunk frat boys in Vegas. When they hit the forties they move on the public library and grade schools. So yeah on the misdirected satisfaction.
I just knew you were that way! So glad we stopped dating. Good lord. Your bigotry is disgusting!
Bigotry?? Oh please, what he said has a strong element of truth. No it’s not bigotry, it’s minimally observing. By the way, these sisters of whatever aren’t “sisters” they’re very sick men.
According to psychologists, transvestites don’t dress up for “unique joy and beauty” or for fun, they do it because they receive sexual stimulation and gratification. That is, they really get off on it.Sexually.
Not bashing trans, whatever floats your boat, but people should be aware of what the actual motivation is behind drag shows ect…
Source to support your claim?
Psychologists publish the results of their studies in journals for peer review. Let’s see the article.
Oh yeah, I am sure there are decades of research, but in this post modern era science and facts are meaningless. So there is no point in my presenting well documented facts if they go against your preconceived notions is there? Your bias and feelings are the priority, and at best you would go find some revisionist woke nonsense that says the exact opposite of a century of psychology, so I am going to save myself the trouble, which will in turn save you the pain of being further offended. It’s a win win if you think about it…
So… you’ve got nothing.
“Whereas sexual arousal was ranked as the most important motivation during the first decade of transvestic behavior, nonerotic pleasure and expression of “the girl within” were reported as the primary motivations of older transvestites. Often, those who continued to experience sexual arousal did not require fetishistic activity to achieve erection, have intercourse, or reach orgasm (G. R. Brown 1994; G. R. Brown et al. 1996). This observation is consistent with the continuum of intensities of fetishistic arousal described by Gebhard (1969), ranging from level 1 (slight preference for transvestic activity) to level 4 (transvestic stimuli taking the place of a partner). Using this framework, level 3 and 4 transvestic fetishists (obligatory fetishism) would be the subset of transvestites most likely to present to a psychiatrist for treatment (or to be brought in by spouses who may feel erotically excluded from their husbands’ sexual lives).”
This doesn’t support your original premise that the motivation behind drag performances is “sexual stimulation and gratification.”
I didn’t say anything about drag performances. I said:
“According to psychologists, transvestites don’t dress up for “unique joy and beauty” or for fun, they do it because they receive sexual stimulation and gratification.”
Then I provided a source to support my claim (which you asked for) which said:
“sexual arousal was ranked as the most important motivation during the first decade of transvestic behavior”
So when I said “they receive sexual stimulation” and the source said “sexual arousal was ranked as the most important motivation” how exactly is that not supporting what I said? And I didn’t scour the bowls of the internet to find that source, it was literally the first thing that came up. There is ike a century of study of transvestites who have been telling researchers that they get off on crossdressing.
More importantly I said that there was no point in providing you with evidence because you were incapable of accepting or understanding anything that went against your woke bias. Looks like I hit that nail squarely on the head…
“but people should be aware of what the actual motivation is behind drag shows ect (sic)…” -Bud
back in the days when the American Psychological Association classified homosexuality as a psychological disorder, (DSM-3 and earlier) Try harder
Those days were not that long ago, mid 1980’s or so. Under the old and current criteria (which are the same) for “mental disorder,” homosexuality still meets the criteria of a mental disorder. What changed its classification is politics, not new science. And before you get your panties in a wad, “mental disorder” does not necessarily mean batshit crazy, depression for example is a mental disorder…
Actually there are very few public studies and the ones I found are basically nothing but interviews. The primary goal stated by the Drag performerwas a desire for fame. Creating a character by parody is the method. And performing and borrowing celebrity glamor and beauty the goal. Although how parody lines up with imitation is confused. But the bottom line is everyone, the audience and the performer, knows it’s not real. In fact would have no purpose in being real.
So why it became a social value to insist that a universally acknowledge unreality is a right is pretty suspect IMO. But here we are in just that position. It’s like insisting a comedian be taken seriously despite being a comedian just because comedian is a protected class. Too much all Alice in Wonderland for so many missing points right and left. A fun read and educational but not a qualification for anything really practical. Would you want a Drag Queen in costume as a surgeon if they weren’t primary a good surgeon first before being Drag? Why the make up alone would be a contaminant. This has become in reality a LGBT power trip marshaling every bit of disparate demographic to leverage a very specific goal.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323417666_The_Emotional_and_Psychological_Experiences_of_Drag_Performers_A_Qualitative_Study/link/5bababe5299bf13e604f7d03/download
“Actually there are very few public studies”
No. If you can’t find relevant information on something that has been extensively studied for over a 100 years, that does not mean that there is no information. It means your search engine doesn’t want you to access the information…
Now that is the pot calling the kettle black
Prior to modern era science, surgeries, and pharma, wasn’t it more about eunuchs?
Eunuch
noun
A castrated man, traditionally employed as a harem attendant or as a functionary in certain Asian courts.A man or boy whose testes are nonfunctioning or have been removed.An ineffectual or powerless man.The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.
The term transvestism came into use following the publication in 1910 of Die Transvestiten (The Transvestites), a work by German physician Magnus Hirschfeld. The term originally was applied to cross-dressing associated with nonheterosexual behaviour. It also was used to describe cross-dressing with intent to derive sexual pleasure
https://www.britannica.com/topic/transvestism
…………………………………………………………………….
Magnus had sexual issues.
I saw the Sisters down in Golden Gate Park at some event many years ago like early 80’s. They are funny, we were pretty high on acid, no hate for anybody and they were expressing themselves so we were like cool, it’s freedom although it wasn’t our thing. Then a couple started doing simulated butt sex including dropping their drawers right there in public. Were they actually butt-screwing? IDK- We didn’t go closer to get a better view! We left but I still remember how uncool that was. Not because they’re gay or trans or anything like that. But because they were more interested in shock value than just being decent- yeah there were children around too. I hope they have gotten their shit together by now and that this incident was as unapproved by the Sisters as this current situation….Like most denominations they look best when preaching love, not shock…
And the downvotes my comment got are exactly why we have a problem. Go live however you like with consenting adults. More power to ya. No problem. Start doing simulated sex acts in public in front of children and I’m fine w/ somebody kicking your ass. It’s called mutual respect. I have it for you. But then ya gotta push push push and when I finally say “Wait a minute” then you tell me I’m full of hate and bigotry?!! No. You are doing crappy stuff to gain shock and attention. And that’s how you. get punched. It’s pretty simple really….and it has nothing to do with being gay or not. It’s like you want to be a victim, you enjoy playing victim, pretty lame…
What you are describing is called “fascism”…
Maybe. I’m just annoyed. I’ve got a bunch of gay friends and I love them- not because they’re gay or not but because they are decent people who have been good to me. And almost everybody I know feels the same about gay, trans, ethnicity, skin color, religion- we do not seek division. You want to work and build a better country- welcome and get on board! You want to play your weird shock games and pretend that you’re educating people by simulating sex in front of children….we are going to have a problem. Then you tell me that because I don’t like that that I am full of hate and bigotry and I am shutting down your free speech? I’ve had enough of that reverse mind-game bullshit….There is a pushback underway and it’s pretty understandable why it is happening. And yeah “Perpetual Indulgence” is nothing to be proud of- it’s the selfish pursuit that has weakened our country and society. Yes- it’s good to feel good and no shame there but …not perpetually! Get to work, ya slackers!!
Obviously kids should not be exposed to drag shows.
Well not in school with the accompanying enforced lesson that it must be embraced.
You’ve lumped a huge array of performances into one grouping.
No, I won’t take my kid to a strip show regardless of who is performing,
but I have no problem taking my kid to a costume show.
What’s a “costume show”?
I can’t imagine a drag show thats appropriate for children. It’s an inherently sexualized performance
If they take their clothes off, it’s a strip show.
If they leave their clothes on, it’s a costume show.
Every drag show I’ve been to the performers keep their clothes on, and they have all still been wildly inappropriate for children.
Fascism is forcing your degenerate behavior, in a public setting, on others. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business. What you do in a public setting becomes everybody’s business. Oh yeah, if you see the “sisters” tell them I’ve got a booking for the group, in Tehran.
The price we pay for freedom gets higher every day!
‘Perpetual Indulgence’ pretty much sums up the actions of this organization as far as I’m concerned. But then I don’t intend getting close enough to find out!
I support the SPI unreservedly. Their work is vital in our, and in all communities where irrational hate of “others” exists.
Now that I have read the comments, I double down on my support.
Do “others” mean Conservatives, Christians, churches, President Trump supporters, Independents, Republicans, blacks who are Republicans like Clarence Thomas and thousands of others, humans against killing whales for wind power, people who simply do not agree? Didn’t think so…….It’s like the pinball machine when you tilted it, it sang the same old sad song…..with first generation Atari game electronic soundtrack. Nice try though.
The comment seemed to condemn the hateful individuals, not the kind-hearted people who belong to the groups you mentioned.
The comment did not make any such distinction. In fact rarely ever does belligerence and insult acknowledge such distinctions exist. Or care aboutbthem.
Finally actually read a news piece on this guy. In it, unlike the rhetoric from the SPI and commenter afterwards, it was not such a big deal and I now suspect the whole “statement” is a nasty jab of feigned concern by the psuedo Sisters. It includess rhetoric that can not be taken seriously by adukts and . The guy was masturbating in public. Repulsive and stupid but hardly earth shaking. His images were taken off face book, the article said “It’s not clear whether Ellis-Gilmore is still an active member of the Sisters, but pictures indicate he was once associated with its Eureka chapter” and mentions that the reporter has not yet heard back from them. It is salacious tabloid reporting only.
Hello! Everyone from RHBB to commenters have been had by a group well known for satire.
Not speaking about the Sisters name, but just overall, perpetual indulgence of me-ism, is exactly what’s wrong with this country.
You don’t convert people by offending them, and simulated sex with a cross offends many straight and/or religious people that actually like and have friends that are LGBTQ.
I personally don’t want to see straight people simulating fornication in public either.
If there’s one thing there’s to little of, it’s privacy.
‘Perpetual indulgence’ pretty much sums up the allegiance to the hedonism and vanity so common in todays amerixa.
revolutionary? lol, when the whole consumer culture shares your primary value of excess and pridefulness?
To me, groups like these are more proof that conservation and minimalism offer better paths for those that actually care about things other than humanity and hubris
The following is a definition from the Oxford Languages dictionary: nun – a member of a religious community of women, especially a cloistered one, living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
From the first sentence of the press release, “The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence Inc. is a leading-edge Order of queer and trans nuns…”
The statement is false. They are not nuns. They are people pretending to be nuns and are in reality mocking real nuns and their sincere religious beliefs. How shitty.
These same people label as bigots those who refuse to believe and support the lie that a man pretending to be a woman is an actual woman. The truth is that men are men and women are women, even if they truly wish it were not so. As long as you aren’t harming others, it is fine to pretend to be something you’re not. It is not reasonable to demand others join you in your charade.
Given the amount of press that “trans” has gotten in the last 2 years alone, you’d think that 60% of the population was trans. It’s a tiny minority with a very very loud bullhorn. When ANYONE demands respect while not conducting themselves respectfully, I’m out. I don’t care what someone’s trip is, getting in everyone’s face invites hostility. Some people just don’t understand that they’re not getting a negative reaction for being gay. They are getting blowback because they are demanding and obnoxious.
Well said.
Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence get off on mocking real nuns.
Nuns do a tremendous amount of good, kind of strange that they are subjected to so much abuse and ridicule in the era of outrage over “microaggressions”.
Something isn’t adding up in the timeline that “the sisters” provided stating that Mr. Gilmore was no longer a member as of 10/20. One of the local news sources showed a photo of Mr Gilmore and some other guy reading at a drag queen story hour at pacific union elementary school. Does anyone recall that image and was there a date associated with it?
I also recall seeing his Facebook page somewhere. Were there any dates provided with pictures or posts on Facebook pertaining to “the sisters”?
I searched archives of Angie’s Outhouse, Northcoast Journal, Times-Standard and RHBB. Couldn’t find anything in those publications and I don’t have Facebook.
Hot Coffee, could you do some sleuthing?
Now for my opinion. While I find the act that this man was arrested for to be disturbing (c,mom dude, a public park in broad daylight with the door open?) I’m not adverse to a guy rubbing one out in the privacy of his own home. It’s gonna happen from time to time and in the words of Eugene Levy in American Pie, “it’s a perfectly natural and healthy thing.”
But it’s doggone embarrassing enough for the guy to be plastered on local news, let alone go National, and if it weren’t for the hullabaloo over “the sisters” appearance at Dodger Stadium earlier this year, it probably wouldn’t have.
Why I am questioning the time “the sisters” say he was no longer a member is because if “the sisters” are presenting a falsehood here, this poor wanker is going to feel like everyone is bailing on him.
Let’s lighten up on jerky here a bit, shall we? It’s not his fault his favorite baseball team is the Yankees and he doesn’t need to be tossed off a cliff for being a little handy in the shorts, donchaknow?
The photos were posted in 2018.
Thanks, Kym.
Kindergartners?
Wrong school , wrong person in above comment
Get the facts straight before you post
Mistakes allow for mental masturbation…
Never turn down an opportunity to get on the soap box.
Reads like this story is less about the ‘work’ of the perpetually indulgent and more about how the more money a man has the more ppl he can pull his penis out in front of. You wanna talk about the oppressed start with those that cannot afford lawyers -All else is weapon of mass distraction- But so long as the ‘sisters’ actions are somehow hostile to the lives of others it should be embraced by the good guardians of societal status-quo.
So what you are saying is you think oppression is not being able to afford a lawyer? You must be a white male who has never dealt with oppression, , you really should school yourself on oppression if you think not affording a good lawyer is oppression, or you are just homophonic, I have no idea since I don’t know you, but you come off as homophonic, which has become acceptable again.
Drag is misogynistic. Deliberately, usually viciously, with venom in belittling women and is a matter of posing for public display and calling it humor. But you’re okay with that as it has never really been unacceptable to despise women. The hypersexuality, yes. The hateful parody of women, never.
Why does that brand of humor always require women to be the butt of their jokes? Ever see the Monks of Masturbation for Money? Or the Rollicking Rectors of Righteous Rough? Now there’s oppression a gal can really get behind. Or really, since it’s a male club, oppression a man can really get behind.
I am a female and I do not find it misogynistic, to me it is an excise for you to hate something you do not understand. You need to relax and quit taking offense to everything, it is simple if you not like do not go, they are making fun of themselves,You also should learn what oppression is, and a drag show is not oppression, oppression is telling them they can not do drag shows because you do not like them
I don’t think those kids had a choice. That’s the problem
Well those people shouldn’t be around kids anyway but in order to appear non biased, were the children’s parents informed beforehand? Can a child who doesn’t know what drag is give informed consent? Or are the children being indoctrinated into accepting drag as normal before the children even understand what drag is and all that it entails? Seems like that may be the case, going around parents to indoctrinate uninformed children into believing a lifestyle that the vast majority of people do not partake in or agree with is a normal thing. That’s a big problem, someday a child’s dad is going to handle that situation and it will be bad. Ruined lives all around. That’s a terrible situation to play around with.
I am tired of people saying the trans community is indoctrinating kids without saying how they are doing it, so how exactly are they doing this? It is people in costumes, how is that harming the kids, do not take your kids out on halloween, they might want to be a monster or clown when they get older. My kid grew up with the gay community, and he is not gay or trans, because they are born that way, if you took the time to get to know the gay community you would know that. I am going to wait for you response how seeing trans people is gong to turn you kids trans.
I’m tired of people dismissing any collateral damage as unimportant just because it is unimportant to themselves. Frankly, especially Trans advocacy by people in the school system can be very harmful for adolescents. Who are by nature in a state of confusion with their biology. Can you imagine a child being mislead into major surgery and hormones replacement because they like things usually identified with the other sex? That their natural adolescent feelings of being out of step gets directed by people telling them that, say,an interest in flashy clothing in a biological boy means they need surgery to change to the sex to fit in? Or a girl who really likes building houses instead of crocheting needs surgery to lose the stress of being different? Misleading is the crime. Not being transgender.
Surgery and hormones should be the very last way considered for an unresolved dysphoria. They do damage in every case and only should be considered if less violent intervention would do. Much of that damage is irrevocable. In no way the first. The preference should always be to learn to let go of stereotypes first and make a life without frog marching the body into compliance with an ideology.
Since gender dysphoria is defined as “a state of severe distress or unhappiness caused by feeling that one’s gender identity does not match one’s sex as registered at birth,” why would anyone encourage kids to go down that path? Who imagines that a 5 year old or 12 year old is competent to make such life changing decisions? Especially without parental knowledge or approval? There’s a hard core of activists pushing an extreme agenda. It’s as if they seek validation at the expense of the misery of others who suffer the unintended consequences of hormone blockers and genital mutilation.
Ya know, I would be totally alright with kids being able to make the decision to undergo trans therapy at the age of 12 or 5 even. It has to be recognized though, that if they are mature enough to make that decision, I also believe they are mature enough to vote, obtain a driver’s license, buy alcohol, cigarettes, and pot, and join the military and go to war. Those activities and behaviors all have much less permanent potential damage built into them than going through a trans surgery and realizing a few years later that the wrong choice was made.
Would you mind if I go to school without your knowledge and starting reading the Gospel to your child?
How do the kids not have a chance? There are more kids that have been hurt by priests, and youth pastors than the trans. community, so we should stop taking kids to church? Seeing someone in costumes is not detrimental to kids they just people reading books to kids in costumes, there is nothing wrong with someone expressing who they are. Have you ever been a hippie gathering, the run around naked and in nutty costumes, but no one has a problem with that.
Is your logic solid?
If more kids are hurt by knives than by guns should we have kids play with guns because that’s the safer option?
How about instead protecting kids from all forms of harm (to the best of our ability)?
Don’t take them to church then I guess, and watch out for creepy Christian politicians.
Don’t forget the Boy Scouts…
That shows children are vulnerable to adult agendas. Are they not equally vulnerable to other agendas than pedophilia and should that not be a flag to keep agendas at a distance?
Don’t forget teachers do it also and is over taking the scouts and church.
https://go2tutors.com/teachers-more-likely-abuse-kids/
How about stop harming kids in general. That’s the point. As a dad, if a priest or a transgender were around my child doing anything that I deemed inappropriate they would both receive the same treatment. That’s equality. Stop attempting to justify your behavior and acceptance of degeneracy with technicalities and obfuscation. I don’t play grey areas and technicality.
You should stop repeating other people’s ideas without any self examination. A Drag Queen is not worried about oppression. A Drag Queen markets it.
Surprisingly to you apparently, I do not hate Drag Queens in general. Even though many are indeed pretty creepy. I find a bit of ridicule healthy for any human to find directed at themselves. And, if it is very clever, even entertaining just because it hits home so precisely. What I do find hateful is targeting women then getting all self righteous and outraged when the favor is returned. Drag Queens are a joke- a deliberately chosen joke by themselves to poke at humans other than themselves. And the emptiness of a group that can dish it out but not take it, especially in such shallow self indulgence, is ugly indeed.
so if they were doing this in black face it would be ok? they are making and perpetuating a misogynist and anti catholic stance. By the very dress and action they are flouting their hate as ‘fun’ and trying to normalize this hate. Could they get a pass by doing this if they were dressed as orthodox jews? muslims? of course not! so why do they get a pass for the “sisters”?
There is female to male drag as well. There has been at least one performer in that style at every drag show I’ve attended. Drag has always been about people playing with the gender polarity opposite their biological gender.
It crosses into misogyny when people start insisting that their play acting affords them access to female spaces whether the women in there like it or not.
Really? One at each show? A whole one? Exactly how did this Drag King make that reversal humorous? Entertaining? Tip worthy? Stuffed their trousers? 10 inch Shoulder pads and two inch lift oxfordd? Surgical attachment of a TV with a football game on? Swaggered around hitting the Drag Queens? Pretended to be an action hero who failed to save anyone? A CEO bullying demanding attention from his female employees? Sat on a couch expecting someone to cook and clean for him? A Frat Bro having a vomit party? A pound down at a bar by drunks? A husband who abandoning his family to shack up with a Drag Queen 30 years younger? A belching contest? A pissing for distance contest? Giant Mullets? What parody or exaggeration of male behavior or attributes actually took place at these shows that the audience found a hoot? Like Drag Queens wearing giant wigs, taping chests to create cleavage, wearing stilettos, wiggling butts and mincing around? Non stop humping? What? Most men are hyper reactive to even vague suggestions that their sex is not perfect much less as bad as women’s. Nothing will promote male bonding like a whiff of the same ridicule they heap on women in general.
Don’t be disingenuous. Drag Queens are not “exploring” anything. They are exaggerating the obvious to ridicule women with a side of sexual frisson. How many performance did you walk away from saying “Wow, women are such noble, giving humans. I want to be more womanish!” Really.
While I appreciate you sharing all the vitriolic stereotypes you hold towards men, the fact that you are angry doesn’t erase the reality that drag involves dressing as a caricature of the other gender. It’s most often men pretending to be women for sure, but I can confirm from first hand experience that the other exists as well.
The performances I have seen have generally involved fake facial hair, a prosthetic bulge (in one case it appeared to be a large dildo or some such under their shorts that allowed them to get a real floppy motion when they hummed the air), and acting tough and sexually aggressive. Lots of flexing and lots of humping props and audience members.
And I’m not sure why you threw in that weird strawman at the end, no one has ever claimed that drag is about female empowerment. Well, I suppose I wouldn’t be surprised if someone is claiming that now. But no one in this conversation and I’ve never seen the SPI say anything like that either. It’s always been about the performers playing with their sexuality and gender expression. The drag performers I’ve actually known all described it that way, as a form of self expression and exploration. It’s not about anyone else, like most performers they are simply interested in a venue to publicly express themselves.
And there it is. In a neat package. With bows on. You made a laundry list of Drag King bits you’ve seen that involves just the sort of exaggeration I listed, ye calling them “sharing all the vitriolic stereotypes (I) hold towards men” when I wrote it. Hello? That is what drag queens usually do with women. It’s mostly cleavage, big hair, trowelled on makeup and tight dresses with the occasional role playing thrown in poking fun at sexual stereotypes beloved of men like french maids or school girls You think that’s not vitriol because they exaggerate stereotypes of women for laughs? It’s just vitriol when I apply it to men… Pot, thy name is Kettle. With sequins.
Of course drag performers describe it as “self expression and exploration.” It sounds so much more uplifting that way. Almost erudite. Preforming it is certainly. Self expression likely indeed. But exploiting stereotypes really is no one’s idea of exploring anything but the performers lack of interest in anything not superficial. The only creativity is how to push that lack of interest in women without making it so mean as to lose the good will of the audience. Otherwise the audience will not know whether to laugh or hiss. A confused audience is not a happy audience.
I get the sense you’ve never seem a drag show before. Vitriol is about the last word that I would associate with them. Yes, there are caricatures at play (that’s the whole point afterall) but nothing approaching the level of “bullying demanding attention from female employees”, “frat bro having a vomit party”, or “abandoning his family”. That’s just your misandry expressed with vitriol.
Likewise, I’ve never seen the female pantomimes play act the real misogynistic female stereotypes like exploiting a man for his money, using their children as tools of manipulation, or callously leveraging perceived power disparities to invoke legal trouble on a male partner.
They’re actually among the more lighthearted performances I’ve ever seen. I’ve seen biological women explore much more fraut tropes in burlesque shows. And the fact that the audience, again in my experience, has been primarily female I don’t think this is just a case of my male life experience blinding me to some obvious misogyny.
If you don’t enjoy drag then don’t go to the shows. There’s a reason that the attempt to push it more into the mainstream is being met with so much resistance. It’s inherently risqué and brushes up against taboos. The whole act of exploring and expressing stereotypes (I’d say more accurately archetypes, in the case of drag), especially those in opposition to the ones that society expects from a person is guaranteed to stir emotions. That’s the point. And that’s the value for self exploration/expression as well.
Again the only difference in your characterization of my misanthry and your misogyny (real stereotypes? Please…) is in who is offering it. Just because misogyny is so constant as to be accepted as a fact of life doesn’t mean it is not misogyny. Condemning my labeling of drag as mostly misogyny while by calling it my misandry is a circular firing squad logic.
To get some clarity to it, let’s take more slowly. Say there’s drag queen whose characterization is
a spin on a las vegas showgirl. Common enough.
First a showgirl is pandering to a mostly male audience with as much nudity as the venue allows, lots of glitter, tight clothes, massive hair styles, spike heels and lots of make up. All of which is uncomfortable, awkward, mindlessly stupifying but is a label that signals it okay to ogle and comment in what in ordinary life would lead to arrest. The point is to say it’s okay to indulge impulses right up to actual grabbing. And sometimes not even that limit. It is marketing stereotyping women to men, done by women for an income. That is by its nature. Misogyny for money. But the sacrifice in status and its risks are the woman’s own for her gain.
Now take the Drag Queen who does the same thing. It still is marketing misogyny for money, once removed, but the seller is offering someone else for money. Not themselves. It’s still misogyny but with utter meaness and disrespect of sacrificing someone else who doesn’t get compensation.
If you can’t see the difference and insist it’s “exploring”, then go ahead and justify exploring blackface. Hey, if someone enjoys it despite its basic premise, then fine. But treating drag as a human right to treat other humans with systematic contempt? Too far.
Know that, despite my take on it, I don’t insist that it be banned. I even can enjoy the humor. Well maybe not given a venue as a right in public institutions like school . I just wish men could do the same when its pointed at them.
The difference is that drag queens are men. Often performing for a largely female audience. It is a caricature/parody of the hyper sexualized misogyny you are criticizing.
And blackface can absolutely be a form of self expression/exploration and a form of art that isn’t disrespectful. The most prominent modern example I can think of is in the movie Tropic Thunder where Robert Downey Jr plays a character in black face. I have seen more obscure works of comedy/satire that use black face to good effect as well.
That’s not to say that there can’t be racist black face performances or misogynistic drag performances. I agree with you that there is a lot of misogyny in the modern trans push. Like I said earlier, the entitlement that men have expressed to access female spaces just because they put on a dress and heels is astonishing and disgusting. But drag was never a female space, it was a space for men and women to play with their own sense of sexuality/gender in much the same way that burlesque is a space for women to play with aspects of their femininity that they may have a hard time embracing day to day.
You don’t have to like it. It’s OK. But castigating the whole genre as misogynistic is just plain inaccurate and guarantees that you won’t get anywhere with anyone that doesn’t already have their own issues with people presenting outside their expected gender norms. But maybe that’s what you want? A call to those who agree with you to raise their hands?
Gender exploration?
What endgame fluff.
Who even cares?
I appreciate your thoughts, but the
The whole thing is a superficial pretense that no survival culture would tolerate.
Guest is best,
The consistent critic on this issue
I mean, besides the obvious point that these are the last few death throes of a society that has forgotten how to take care of itself from living the good life for so long that it thinks whether a man in a wig using the women’s bathroom is a more important social issue than the fact our birthdate is below replacement and we are heading towards rapid deindustrialization, tell me how else you know a society is about to collapse?
Sure, the push to bring decadent behavior like this into the center stage of mainstream culture may be a sign of an empire on the verge of collapse.
But our particular gender norms are not some universal objective truth. And all cultures have always had members that pushed at the edges of their particular gender norms. Some cultures have more formalized roles around it than others. But all cultures throughout time have had a small segment of the population that presented to the world differently than the norm.
Really you say that drag is not a female space but a space for exploring sexuality that is for men and women? That it is 99% male and overwhelming homosexual male at that and exists to perform means nothing to you? That, maybe, just maybe, that demographic might is unlikely to understand women, their burdens, their virtues or anything other than the outward stereotypes that are virtually all that drag offers? But yet they are “exploring” their sexuality? Without listening or worrying about actual flesh and blood women? That is disingenuous. Period.
You keep mansplainIng to me about how I don’t like drag and how I castigate it unfairly. And telling me i want to ban it out of my silly womanish outrage. Hello! I appreciate clever people. I keep saying so. Especially those who have a self depreciating sense of humor. So I can appreciate that part of drag. I can appreciate humor over sexuality. I never once said anything about banning, except as a performance in public schools. And that because I don’t think idiosyncratic performers parodying women should be offered to individuals too young to understand its meaning. And too young to appreciate when an individual does not care about their safety. If drag really is what you keep saying it is, an exploration of sexuality, it is not something an 8 or 5 year old should have to figure out.
Even if the adult performers complain it’s unfair. They are grown up and should be able to see their demands are not all about themselves. And the fact there are people who think that drag performers have that right makes them a liability.
But all that does not mean that I am required to say it is not misogynistic. It is blatantly so. Is acknowledged by most of it’s group to be so. It derives existence to it. Until the recent, and I’m sure temporary, rise in feminism, it was perfectly acceptable.
“Cabaret diva Miz Ima Starr says problematic portrayals of women through drag are omnipresent.
“When I started doing drag 25 years ago, there wasn’t anyone I knew doing drag that wasn’t misogynistic, and it’s something we continue to see today” she says.
“I don’t think anyone’s setting out to be terrible to women through their performance. They’re just being thoughtless, and not being mindful that their performance isn’t actually about gender.”
https://www.starobserver.com.au/news/national-news/does-drag-still-have-misogyny-problem/174405
So here’s some womansplaining. I think you’re defending men against women even when those men are drag queens. It has nothing to do with reason, justice or even any convoluted rationalization. It’s just being a person who does not expect nor want to have to defend themselves.
Nobody is “mansplaining” anything to you and I do not attribute your attitude about drag to your gender. Having interacted with and observed you respond to myriad issues in this comment section I realize that your response to people who disagree with you is generally to bitterly and angrily ascribe a tremendous amount of malice to them. There’s nothing inherently feminine about that, it’s just your personality. Stop trying to use your gender as a cudgel.
Ditto
TGIA said:
“There’s a reason that the attempt to push drag more into the mainstream is being met with so much resistance. It’s inherently risqué and brushes up against taboos.” It’s actually quite a bit more complicated than that.
Without getting into the debate about whether drag is mysoginistic (I think it inherently is, in much the same way minstrel shows are racist), the pushback only began with the advent of “Drag Queen Story Hour” in schools and libraries.
And DQ Story Hour is inextricably linked with the movement to “educate” children, from kindergarten on up, that they are not limited by their biological sex.
The DQ’s are living examples (to impressionable children) that anyone can change gender as easily as changing clothes and that it’s completely fun and normal to do so.
Nobody I know is opposed to LGBT equality. But nationwide people are waking up to issues associated with violating the rights of women and girls by allowing biological men to compete in women’s sports; and the permanent damage that’s often inflicted on children by transitioning them from their biological sex when they’re incapable of understanding the implications to their long term physical and psychological health.
Drag is adult entertainment. If it belongs anywhere it’s in nightclubs, comedy clubs, movies and t.v. – not in front of impressionable primary school age children.
Agreed completely, the issue is not the existence of drag shows/drag queens (a niche form of adult entertainment where consenting adults knowingly play with social constructs around gender presentation).
The issue is taking this fantasy, adult play and attempting to force the world at large to join your fantasy and pretend it is reality. The issue is bringing these very adult concepts around toying with gender presentation and shoving it in the face of children who don’t have the mental capacity or cultural experience to put it in context.
If you want to be a drag queen be a drag queen. Stop insisting you’re a woman just because you put on makeup and a dress. THAT is misogyny.
Not the same person!!!!!!!!
“to any woman’s right to control her health care decisions.”
Only women have this right?
Only women though find it illegal to do.
Why was this not reported on when it happened?
It was:
https://johnchiv.blogspot.com/2023/08/clinton-ellis-gilmore-arrested-for.html?m=1
https://lostcoastpopulist.com/sisters-man-arrested-4-indecent-exposure/
Kym chose not to cover it until it went national. LoCo won’t cover it.
Where’s the name taking responsibility for this statement? Since it’s shown in the letter to the editor/columns section? But even more when claiming “community service, fundraising, and activism on behalf of marginalized communities.”, there needs to be a clarification of which communities are being served. Self Indulgence suggest self indulgence only. What are your guidelines for ensuring your members are not be using as a cover for criminal behavior?
? Doesn’t community service, fundraising, and activism groups need a permit before staging a performance?
Note the clarification came out only after the story hit international news (its in the Daily Mail) As for all the “community service, etc.” where is the proof that it actually takes place, and does not simply benefit the Sisters? (Taking BLM and their financial chicanery as an example…)
Can anybody have a letter posted without identifying themself?
Anyone who writes a letter to the editor has to identify themselves. In this case, however, KMUD requested a statement from the Eureka chapter of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, we needed a place to post it. This seemed to fit the letters to the editor section best. We didn’t think to ask for a name.
But, two sisters signed this elsewhere https://www.eurekasisters.org/:
Media Contact
Sister Mary Magnalaid
Abbess, Eureka House
[email protected]
Sister Rosie Palmer Partridge
President and Abbess, San Francisco House
[email protected]
It might have been da noise that brought in the funk in the 90s and 2000s but society has moved beyond listening to a person parading as nun for information on how to better treat marginalized groups. At some point the marginalized have to accept no longer being marginalized. Put away the glitter and hang up the crucifixes gals. Your mission is dead.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/10-most-shocking-boy-scouts-reveals-from-netflixs-scouts-honor-documentary/ar-AA1gsgxz
I appreciate the Sisters taking the time to speak up and provide context and inform the public that they broke up with this deeply messed up man long ago. I appreciate the Sisters openness as it speaks to their integrity ( not perfection) and willingness to
prevent and correct harm- versus organizations who have a long history of denial, fact hiding, and protecting adults who actively harm Children.
And as for all the transphobia and queer bashing. Just stop.
Missed the satire, huh?
Not to toot my own horn in public but Im a professional fisherman and a master in my field, I find the term master baiting highly offensive for this behavior!
They’re not “nuns” and mocking religion isn’t cool.
Transvestites are not the same as drag queens. Drag is about larger than life, character performance and theater. They are not actually trying to pass as women. Drag pokes fun at female stereotypes.
Lots of transvestites try to pass as women.
Im not sure the word transvestite is even in use anymore.