Former Firefighter Lambastes US Forest Service for Wildfire Mismanagement
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I am a retired career firefighter and it is my opinion that the United States Forest Service (USFS) is grossly mismanaging our National Forests by using midsummer forest fires as a “management tool.” I have several points that I feel are relevant to this opinion. Please take the time to consider the following:
The USFS does not attack wildfires on a timely basis that would allow them to suppress new fires at their inception as other fire agencies do. This allows the wildfire to grow to dangerous size before any action is taken. When the USFS receives report of a fire, they often do not take action on the fire for many days. Instead they plan for a major incident from the beginning by setting up their Incident Bases first and then calling for out of state resources. It is important to know that the USFS manages public lands…they are the primary “managers” of the land they protect on our behalf. State and local fire agencies protect private lands…when you call with an emergency, they will respond immediately.
The USFS does not utilize the California Mutual Aid System effectively. They draw resources from out of state and often do not communicate with State and Local fire agencies. Have you ever heard of “black ops”? CalFire regularly dispatches their resources to protect state responsibility lands and local jurisdictions within the National Forest boundaries because the USFS does not ask for help. Regrettably, the bottom line is that the USFS does not play well with others. The USFS does not give adequate consideration and action toward structure protection. I have had personal experience with the USFS ignoring structure protection and after evacuating a fire area will simply let structures burn without attempting to protect them. I have also been subject to the USFS holding separate briefings from the “all resources” general daily shift briefings that resulted in my structure protection resources being given only the barest fire behavior information and no incident map. I have also commonly experienced attitudes of superiority and discrimination from USFS employees towards state resources assigned to USFS fires.
The USFS policy of 16-hour day shifts, with no fire suppression efforts during the night, leads to ineffective wildland fire management. When is the best time to put a wildland fire out? Nighttime, of course. This is common sense. Cooler temperatures, higher humidity, and less wind. In the “old days” both CalFire and the USFS worked two 12-hour shifts, a day shift and a night shift on wildland fires. Presently CalFire works a 24-hour shift to take advantage of this environmental fire suppression opportunity. Now the USFS employs a single 16-hour shift and does not fight fire at night, thus missing the best opportunity to contain the fire.
The Federal financial management system allows the USFS to receive additional annual funding called “black acre” funds for budget supplementation dedicated for rehab and repair of the National Forest infrastructure and to repair environmental damage due to the fire. National Forests that do not have a major fire in their jurisdiction do not receive this additional funding and have financial incentive to allow their fires to grow as large as possible. I have personally heard a USFS Incident Commander boast that he was going to ensure that his fire “will have the lowest cost per acre” of any USFS incident. How is this done: the greatest acreage possible with the lowest resource commitment possible. CalFire resorted to the above-described “black ops” to ensure structure protection was carried out.
USFS safety employees go on “hazard pay” overtime from the inception of the fire until the fire is out. I believe this removes incentive for the employees to fight fire aggressively. Working 16-hour shifts during a 24-hour day ensures eight hours of overtime every day. All employees should be compensated for hours worked according to their collective bargaining agreements. I feel the USFS can do better by their employees and provide for better operational effectiveness.
Although it is commonly agreed upon that the wildland fuels are badly overgrown and in need of effective management to reduce the fuel hazard caused by wildfire, the USFS uses this fact to justify their management choices. Allowing fires to burn for months at a time, covering the state in smoke and making life miserable for most of our population, while simultaneously destroying millions of acres of National Forest land is not what we, the people, want. The history of wildfire in California is well documented. It is written in the giant sequoias in their annual rings. But I feel that “people come first.” Management tools used in the past, such as “let burn policies,” need to be revisited and changed to account for California residents’ expansion into the Wildland areas of the state for both residential and recreational purposes. What benefit is a wilderness area or roadless area if it has been destroyed by wildfire that the USFS refuses to contain?
When was the last time the USFS planted a tree to replace timber destroyed during a wildfire? When was a prescribed burn planned and executed to reduce wildland fuel loads? What do we, the people, expect from the USFS as a land management agency? Do we really want our National Forests to look like the Mendocino NF or the Plumas NF or the Klamath NF or the Sequoia NF or the Los Padre NF or the Stanislaus NF : charred beyond recognition and eroding into our rivers?
How does climate change play into this discussion? I am not a climate change expert, but hotter, drier conditions resulting from climate change can make a significant impact on fire weather and fuels. There is no question that if a wildfire is left unattended long enough it will explode into a life-threatening scenario for our firefighters. Our firefighters are facing extreme fire behavior without question. Why is it that CalFire assisted by local government resources can extinguish fires burning through subdivisions and up against our towns and cities in ten days to two weeks, but the USFS cannot extinguish any wildland fire until the winter rains come? Why is it that when these disastrous fires burn from National Forest jurisdiction to state jurisdiction the fire is immediately put out? How much smoke and erosion and property damage and loss of life and environmental damage can we endure?
Historically the USFS has set the standards for wildland firefighting. But the standards have changed and the USFS must meet the standards or let competent firefighters do the job.
Ladies and gentlemen, I am sending this opinion to as many media providers as I can in hopes that I can interest our legislators to take action and investigate these claims. I feel this is a political problem to be dealt with at the Federal level. If you agree I ask you to do the same. Am I an expert in these issues? Yes, in some respects. I am a retired firefighter with 42 years’ experience with both state and local government fire departments, and I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Forest Management.
Finally, if a National Forest Supervisor allows his or her forest to be totally burned in one fire season, I feel that the National Forest Supervisor in question should be dismissed for failure to be responsible to the wishes of we, the people. I also believe that if the Regional Forester for the California Region 5 does not take appropriate action to remedy this situation he or she should be dismissed.
Please use this opportunity to let me know your opinion.
Jim Robertson
(707)291-4792
I am a retired career firefighter and it is my opinion that the United States Forest Service (USFS) is grossly mismanaging our National Forests by using midsummer forest fires as a “management tool.” I have several points that I feel are relevant to this opinion. Please take the time to consider the following:
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Thanks Jim! I always suspected everything you mention here.
Seems like an industrial sized pension padding exercise.
I’d just like to point out that the vast majority of federal firefighters on the ground are seasonal or temporary employees who get no pension, no early retirement, and no health insurance.
If someone’s padding a pension, it’s not the forest technicians who staff most of the fires.
Thanks for sticking your neck out Jim. It will take a long time to drain that swamp even if Trump does pull off a miracle.
Trashman, how can you use ‘Trump’ and ‘miracle’ in the same sentence? I could see using ‘Trump’ and dumb or racism or sexist or elitist or vindictive or sore loser or a phase like, ‘doesn’t care about the poor and/or middle class’ but not miracle. Trump doesn’t care about you, your friends, your family, your community, or your church at all ‘Trashman’ get real.
If he pulls this challenge all the fraud off and gets to remain president he can continue to reform public lands policy, he has already moved the main office to Colorado. Dopey Joe and the witch will not do anything positive about this. If they do I will admit l was wrong.
its time to face reality. trump is a wannabe dictator and its over. I figured he would go out this way if it was 4 or 8 years in office. the fraud investigation is over as of this morning and the only remaining action is the recount of Georgia, which will end poorly for trump as all of his honest advisors have told him. as far as the forest go, it is obvious that the US needs to fund forest management like it did in the past just like mental health.
Well said , no venom or cancel culture.
If you are the sort who believes you can’t do something, you can always take pride in always being right. No one will be able to take that self satisfaction away from you.
Unfortunately for Trump, since he was told he could not win the nomination in 2016 and he did, then was told he could never win the election and he did, then was told he would be removed from office for conspiring with the Russians, which he wasn’t as he didn’t, you’ll just have to bear with him while he sorts through the fog of calumny, viciousness, ineptitude and failures of his enemies to see if he can pull it off yet again. You taught him well now live with it.
Trump at this point is like the black knight in Monty Python’s Life of Brian, refusing to concede the fight after he has all his limbs cut off.
There are plenty of things to criticize Trump over, but the tired old tropes of racism, sexism, and elitism aren’t among them. Trump’s appeal to working class voters is in part due to his having greater empathy for them than they’ve seen from any selected candidate they’ve seen for decades. He connects with people in an off-the-wall, silly, entertaining kind of way, and his I-don’t-give-a-fuck persona is refreshing to people who have been on the receiving end of spurious judgements (racism, sexism, etcetera). He also has more appeal to minority voters than any Republican candidate after 1960.
Trump’s venal, impulsive, and generally incompetent response to the pandemic is what did him in.
I don’t think Trump is really empathetic with anyone. He smply found common cause between his belief in his own ability to get deals and a large part of America who believed in the rewards of their own work too and resented being burdened by regulations designed to support those fail to take care of themselves. As long as he was being supported by them, they play a part in his plans. Which is at least better for them than being treated alternately as cash cows or enemies like the left does. If there had been no left media, there would never have been a President Trump. Principles have little to do with any of it. On either side.
Thanks Mr. Robertson for an eye opening thought provoking piece.
I believe the August complex started in “wilderness”areas, these must be stopped immediately, as all fires on any land, USFS or private. I know private people who tore up contracts from USFS and went and fought the fires on their own, with Cal Fire, saving many structures. USFS also pulled Cal Fire off fires that were obviously heading towards private land and homes on them. The firefighters who saved our place, where the fire came 200 yards from it, were Cal Fire, local fire dept, and the Jersey Boys. We are working on lawsuits to stop the above mentioned practices, and stop fires, Wilderness areas, USFS, or any where else, immediately. Fuck the US govt., fuck the environmentalist groups who hurt so many with their bullshit idiotic policies. They don’t live here.
That is perhaps the most clueless comment about wildland fire management I’ve read. Try actually learning about the history of fire management in the west and how we got to where we are today. And while you are at it, maybe try to understand exactly what a Wilderness area is and how it’s supposed to be managed. It’s pretty much the opposite of what you suggest.
If you can’t deal with living in a fire-prone ecosystem, the smart thing would be to move and not try to change the entire landscape just to make it safe for you.
There is no more wilderness area now, it all burned up, along with countless animals. Just drive to the top of Pratt, and look east. All is burned. Fuck the history, this is now, and so much has been lost, wilderness and homes and ranches. Put the fires out when they start, not after they have grown until you can’t. The August complex was stopped 200 yards from our ranch, and was stopped by locals and Cal Fire. I believe Guest mentioned wilderness is a supposed to be a sanctuary. Well it’s not now, and these stupid policies must change. Perhaps some could go to the homes of the USFS policy makers, and demand justice, and a change to this destructive practice. They knew lightning was going to strike, they knew this could have been stopped, mostly by air, and they knew this thing could explode , which it did. Stop destroying FS roads and access to these areas, start making roads into wilderness areas, and start managing these forests correctly, I.E., brush removal, via goats maybe, and logging. And as far as leaving here, no way. We are clearing our ranch of almost every tree, metal roof, sprinklers. And we have 30 years of our lives in this land, not leaving. Also, where would you suggest we go? An apartment in a city? Fuck that. Or the south east, with tornadoes and hurricanes and floods,? Or the Midwest, with the incredible storms, and floods? The southwest, with the heat and no water, and all the illegals? No, we will stay here, and protect our ranch, but we do not have to hurry now, the forest has been destroyed very close to us, nothing will burn here for another 50 years, or, maybe forever, if this stays cleared.
It’s kind of sad to see someone so utterly clueless about wildland fire and land management in general and wilderness management specifically and yet so insistent they know how everyone should manage a landscape in which fire is not only inevitable, it is also integral to the way the whole thing works.
People trying to live in these systems without understanding them or adapting to them are the real problem.
I’ll add a bit to my comment in the futile attempt to try and clarify things for Stuber even though it is crystal clear they aren’t interested in actually learning anything. Someone else might benefit.
1) Wilderness is by definition, land that is primarily affected by the forces of nature and where the imprint of humanity is largely unnoticeable and temporary. Fire from lightning strikes counts as a force of nature. Even so, this year the Forest Service aggressively fought all fire starts right from the beginning as soon as they had resources available to do so from everything I’ve read. Other years, they will let them burn but because of COVID and lingering drought, they didn’t this year.
2) Logging by itself solves nothing with wildland fire. That’s because trees and shrubs regrow after logging, particularly after clearcuts. This creates more fuel at the surface where fires predominantly burn. We are better off if we reduce surface fuels and leave large, spaced-out older trees (the kind we want to log because that’s where the money is) to provide shade and suppress understory growth and then allow light surface fires to burn frequently to keep fuel down.
3) Aggressive suppression alone has been tried for over 100 years and all it did was allow more fuel to accumulate so that when a fire did get started, it had far more fuel to burn than it otherwise would have. It just doesn’t work and it makes things worse.
4) Roads are a bigger problem than they are an asset, which is why we’ve been trying to reduce and remove roads wherever possible. Roads might provide easier access for fire engines but it also dramatically increases sediment in streams and provides additional ignition sources (i.e. more fires) because people drive the roads.
5) Humans have a notoriously short frame of reference. These forests that had fire will regrow. They have been doing this for millions of years. It’ll take a while, but unless something else impedes their re-growth (like climate change or invasive species), they’ll come back. Almost every forest in the west looks the way it does today because of the fires in the past.
6) Trying to stop wildland fires is like trying to stop tornados. You don’t . You build in a way that allows you to survive the inevitable occurrences and deal with it. Or move. Those are the choices.
Thanks Cy, nice informative post with some leads people can google to learn more.
I agree with everything you said, except maybe #3. I’m starting to see evidence that fuel is not the problem. It’s the high wind, east wind, dry wind that causes the really big burns. Like the August where it was spotting 15 miles ahead, over Ruth Lake. No puny shaded fuel break is going to stop that.
The FS got really aggressive with fire suppression after the 1910 (Pestigo?) fire. But there was no fire suppression before that, so?
And sage is NOT fire adapted. If fires were more frequent in the past, the Sage Grouse would have not had time to evolve. Or the black-backed woodpecker.
Yes, Native Americans burned a lot, but it was mostly around their villages and some prime spots for hunting/gathering/basket material. They didn’t put out lightning fires, but they didn’t burn the whole landscape frequently either.
Nature does that all on her own. Good news is, the nasty east wind events are more common with really cold dense air over the intermountain west and Rockies coming at our relatively warm maritime air. Global warming, theoretically, will make those cold air masses warmer and reduce the Santanas, Diablos, and Chinooks.
We know that if there is no fuel, there is no fire. All fuel is being removed from our ranch, no more brush or thickets of trees. It will all burn or be milled this winter, eliminating the chances of our place burning and being destroyed. We are not the only ones, many are working towards the same goal. And we will prevail. You can lecture all you want, but to us it is very simple. Clear your land, fire proof your infrastructure. We cringe when we go through Blocksburg or Alderpoint and see the tremendous amount of fuel right along the road. Had the fire gotten there, Alderpoint would be gone in 20 minutes. They, along with all the other areas with this problem, had better start clearing now, or all will be gone, leaving you to deal with the govt., insurance, and rebuilding. We can agree with you about all your science and explanations. Obviously you know what you are talking about, We have seen it first hand having lived here almost 40 years, the logging, the underbrush, all of it. So, instead of running and leaving our lives behind, we are eliminating the chances of this happening again. There are several home steads that were surrounded by fire and made it, because they had built and cleared, eliminating fuel, eliminating their chance of burning. A few access roads do not contribute too much to sediment, not nearly as much as a million acres of silt hitting the rivers this winter. A gravel road graded correctly, with culverts, and the outside edge of the road at correct angles, eliminates a lot of sediment. There are thousands of miles of dirt and gravel roads in Humboldt and trinity counties, as there are many in our surrounding areas also. We would suggest that you clear your land, and get ready for the next round. Climate change is real. If you want to slow it, stop supporting global trade, and make your / our stuff locally. Container ships, which there are over 90,000, burn 7000 gallons of the most filthy fuel there is, an HOUR. Or, 270 million tons of pollution a year. 90,000 times 7000 gallons an hour. Buy American, eliminate tons of pollution, reduce the contibution to climate change. And thank you for your info.
Then it sounds like you are adapting where you live for the potential of fire. That’s what folks will need to do.
Just remember that you’ll have to keep it up because all the fuel will grow back. That’s the inherent problem of fuels management in forests — it’s not a one-and-done kind of thing.
We have actually watched this happen in our area. They watched the fire up the hill from our house a few years ago for about 4 days before attempting to do anything and I don’t think that the fire that started on 299 and went through Redding should have gotten as far as it did, nothing was done for days.
I have seen first hand some of this mismanagement when reporting fires from a fire lookout. They went from small fires I reported in late evening of one day to still burning the next morning and then by the time the FS got going on it it made a run up the mountain in the Yolla Bolla wilderness and encompassed over 700 acres. Been happening for years
Bonnie, you do realize how hard it is to hike a crew into a Wilderness at night to try and find a reported fire, don’t you? It’s not like they have teleporters.
Cy, when did real men and women start sherking from hard work? So what if it’s hard work, lots of things are hard work. Do you suggest we only take on the easy jobs!?
There’s hard work and then there are exercises in futility. Hiking cross-country, in rough terrain carrying all of your gear while trying to locate a small fire called in by a lookout in the dark is challenging to say the least. You can often be far more effective by having the crew stage and hike in at first light.
I’ve had to do this before and you mostly didn’t find the fire until after sun up anyway and you were exhausted from wandering around in the mountains all night assuming no one got hurt part way in.
There best be some changes in the way fires are fought. Because, if suppressing all fire lead to a build up of fuels (a coincidence that was where the blame was assigned after restrictions on logging were implemented) and worse fires, complaining about climate change is not working well as a fire fighting tool. Imagine that- you can’t have unrestrained immigration with its population increases, spend the vast majority of taxes on social causes, have crime ridden cities and not expect that people will look to living in wild areas as pressure release. That is what immigration always has been looking for.
This is what I have heard from current firefighters as well.
We might as well start logging the resource as to just intentionally burn it up. The removal of existing roads in the forest also makes accessing fires more difficult for fire response so why are tax dollars wasted on this. So many questions come to mind but I am in agreement with Mr. Robertson we need to fire the managers of our forests who allow this type of fire management.
Yes,
Absolutely agree.
I knew it was about the money.
Don’t forget the contamination of drinking water sources and systems, and yes as you mentioned, the compromised to our waterways and fisheries.
The forest service should be liable for any damage for a fire that leaves their jurisdiction.
And what I most agree with is your last point…
Manage the National Forest with the axe.
If the fires aren’t quickly contained, start at the top, they get the axe.
Work your way as far down as necessary to stop the fires from burning out of control.
Otherwise unchecked fires would mean undeserved promotions.
Axe the guy at the top, and then axe or demote everyone else. No promotions .
And for Heaven’s sake, take away their
Damn drip torches.
And take money away for black acres from all of them.
Then maybe they will start working together.
Paying them for black acres is absurd.
That is unheard of.
It’s outrageous, and pretty much explains everything.
Having worked for CDF back in the late 80’s I can attest that the attitudes have been ongoing for some time with USFS and sadly not much has changed. Back then they were not willing to communicate or cooperate with effective fire management that was set forth by CDF, whom were often if not always the first to respond. They boasted an exclusivity that actually interfered with them working cooperatively with other services. Mr. Robertson’s opinion can be validated by many who have worked in CDF.
Thank you Jim!!!!
This is very well said and I hope a wake up call for the many who live within the Wildland Urban Interface and those that represent them/us in the offices of government. Jim’s description of the differences between the USFS and CalFire are accurate and need to be addressed before there is nothing left of our forests, our homes or our lives.
Thanks again Jim for writing this. I will share this far and wide and I hope that it opens many eyes!!!!
Please share this message, talk to your friends and neighbors about it. Plan for the next fire today!!!! Get involved!!!!
IT IS SO APPRECIATED WHEN PEOPLE SPEAK UP AT MISMANAGEMENT OF AGENCIES…..THANK YOU JIM!!!!!
Wow! That sounds terrible. Except it’s all complete bullshit.
Your appeal to authority falls flat when you clearly don’t know what you are talking about.
To claim the FS does not respond to new incidents for days or until they have base camps set up is blatantly, provably false.
The FS does not do structure protection. Never has. They are a wildland firefighting agency.
Of course fires get put out more quickly when they threaten homes than when they are in the wilderness. That’s just common sense. But that’s no reason to say CalFire puts fires out and the FS doesn’t.
The FS absolutely fights fires at night. There is a day shift, which as you say can be up to 16 hours long, and then there is a night shift. Typically shifts are 12 hours long, from 0600 to 1800, and from 1800 to 0600, although shift often overlap. I think the way CalFire runs 24 hour shifts is crazy because it has been shown that after 16 or 20 hours critical thinking and decision making skills go way down. It also means you have a brand new Division Supervisor each day who doesn’t know what happened on that division the day before.
The August Complex blew up locally during two extreme wind events. When the fire is spotting up to 15 miles away, OVER Ruth Lake, what exactly would you have the FS do? And if you were paying attention, the fire has been out for about two weeks or more (i.e., before season ending rains).
Of course the FS gets additional dollars to deal with post-fire rehab. Does that not make sense to you? I’m guessing if they didn’t get money for rehab, you’d be bitching about that too!
CalFire thinks the only way to stop a wildland fire is to get a bunch of bulldozers and have them plow up the entire landscape, including up and down stream channels. They made a horrible mess between Zenia and the Lassics, most of which has not been repaired and now winter is upon us.
Look, I know there is rivalry between CalFire and the FS. You are clearly a butt-hurt CalFire guy that wants to stir the shit pot for some reason. I’m not sure what you hope to accomplish with your lies and propaganda, but I encourage all readers to take Jim’s tirade with a grain of salt and search out some unbiased facts for yourself, if you can find any in the crazy media world we now live in.
Please post some links or references? You seem to know more than most of us about the rivalry and I don’t doubt you that there is one. I would love to read something that runs counter to Jim’s assertions. Because from the little I know of the agency’s inner workings and what I have witnessed I have to say that Jim’s opinion seems correct. But please- let’s have a public debate! We all might learn something. I don’t know what you do so please post some links?
I couldn’t get through the first paragraph. The FS engines and hotshot crews are first responders to any local fires.
Where are they located?
I know of some of them at Salyer, Big Bar, Weaverville, Hayfork has two engines, Mad River has a hot shot crew and the Trinity Hot Shots are based out of Harrison Gulch.
All fires I worked on this year the USFS had crews out there doing structure protection….Total bullsh&t Jim!
You forgot to straighten him out on Hazard pay. USFS firefighters do not get it until the fire is out. Only from the time the fire starts until the fire is declared ‘contained’. After that, as the fire goes to ‘controlled’ status, then eventually declared ‘out’, they get regular pay and overtime for any hours over 8 in a day. Hazard pay is only 25% of their regular pay, and doesn’t count towards retirement, and is fully taxed as income. If you wanna talk big bucks, Calfire and local governments get ‘station to station’ pay when on fires. They get paid 24 hours a day, 7 days a week on fires, even while sleeping at the hotels and eating at restaurants their union agreements demand. While the USFS firefighters get nothing at all off shift in their tents on the ground in Fire camp. Calfire and local govt. personnel can often cost the fire 3 times the cost of USFS personnel..
Plus most of the federal firefighters are seasonal employees with no retirement, no pension, no insurance. Unless things have changed in recent years.
And then they aren’t even classified as wildland firefighters. Forestry Technicians Rule!
The Forest Service per diem compensation is also ridiculously low. That organization has become downright predatory towards low-level employees, with appointment stations and working conditions subject to change at the whims of bureaucrats playing institutional politics and enforced by intimidation and extortion.
This is not it just mismanagement, it’s criminal mismanagement. The forest service management style policy, allows their Fires to turn into the proverbial runaway freight train. When the fire hits Cal Fire jurisdiction, CF can have massive property loss, and loss of life, before they can get a handle on it.
The US forest service will blame global warming for the amount of burnt ground. They will claim that their Assets were tied up protecting domestic dwellings as an argument for why they were unable to stop the spread sooner.
Don’t blame the fire fighters, they just follow orders. Leadership need to be called in front of congress to answer for their crimes. Class action lawsuits would be in order.
Qualified Immunity is part of the problem, as the USFS knows that under Qualified Immunity the USFS cannot be held responsible for any decisions they make, from law enforcement to fire fighting. It’s called “Discretionary Function Exception immunity”, USFS terms. This makes the USFS untouchables like Elliot Ness. This Qualified Immunity lets the USFS abuse the public at will. I know because we have personally experienced the wrath of the USFS with their attempts to steal our property. Aso, my wife and I are contract firefighters and have experienced the USFS negligence pertaining to wildland firefighting. More than once we have watched the USFS bring in firefighters from Texas (Red Adair) who are better suited to fight oil well fires than burning trees. This abuse of the public trust must stop. End Qualified Immunity now. …..Bill Rogers from ground zero of the August Complex Fire that burned 1,032,648 acres, and to within 200 yards of our home, and burned to a crisp our 160 acre wildlife sanctuary. Over 600 structures burned from Forest Glen to Kettenpom and who knows how many between Kettenpom and Covelo where this lightning started fire originated. Thank you Jim Robertson for having the guts to stand up and tell the truth. We have had the same experiences as you on many USFS/Cal Fire wildfires over 45 years. Funny you use the same term I do, that the U.S. Forest Service does not play well with others, not only including Cal Fire but private contractors and the National Guard as well. The late Mad River District Ranger Dan Dill also stated that the Forest Service is not a good neighbor. We really miss Dan Dill he was are only friend in the Forest Service.
You nailed it Jim, I to have been on USFS fires also, they expect the fire to stop at night.
You obviously have not worked on many fires or fires over many years because they work 24/7 on fires.
Thank you for shining light on this issue Jim. Amen Sir!!
Adam is right, I started fighting fire with CDF in 62 and have worked with CDF , USFS , BLM, HIA, BIA and was a Volunteer at 3 different Fire Depts in southern Ca and Northern Ca. I was also a Fire contractor providing Engines and crews to both CDF and USFS.
I don’t know what this jim guys problem is but he is full of shit
I will assume that Adam is a current USFS employee and he thinks that they are doing a great job. They are not.
Kym, I’m a little disappointed you would post this kind of opinion piece on such a sensitive subject without any fact checking beforehand. There are so many points in this man’s letter that are blatantly incorrect. But now that it’s out there and people have read it, they will assume it’s all true. It’s one thing to let people say things incorrectly in your comments section, but to post something like this is pretty messed up.
I currently work as a firefighter for the USFS here in Humboldt and have Cal Fire training and qualifications, as well as many friends in both agencies. Yes there is a rivalry, but hardly by the boots on the ground, it seems to be much more at the higher management levels. Articles like this only perpetuate the rivalry.
For one, I can’t tell you how many fires we’ve been dispatched to in the middle of the night and fought fires for 24-36 hours before any relief. Yes, on long term incidents we work 16-hour shifts, but there is a day 16-hour shift from 0600-2200 hours and a night 16-hour shift from 1800-1000 hours. I’ve sucked so much toxic smoke over the years doing structure protection, putting out burning structures, and saving peoples homes so for him to say we let them burn is insulting. We also always “initial attack” fires, but some burn in areas so remote and far away from roads, trails and infrastructure that they are lower on the priority list due to resource needs and fire threat elsewhere closer to homes and structures.
I don’t have time to pick through his entire letter and shine light on everything he said that’s incorrect, but this guy clearly has something against the forest service and your website doesn’t seem like the appropriate place for him to spread false claims as “facts.” Every firefighter worked their ass off this summer doing their best to save homes, life and property, regardless of their agency and this article stirs the pot unnecessarily.
Thank you for your response Firefighter! Not sure what happened to my comment saying the opposite of what Jim wrote.
Thanks for the clarification from your point of view. There are a lot of “retired career firefighters” who don’t have much actual knowledge of how wildland fire management works or what the Forest Service and other federal firefighters do.
While it has been a while since I’ve worked on a USFS fire crew, we were nearly always out at night. My first FS job was on an engine crew up in Happy Camp and we got called out in the middle of the night multiple times that first summer for initial attack on just-reported fires. And if you want to describe fun, try hiking in rough country at night to be the initial attack crew on a fire.
It’s not the same thing as being able to drive up to someone’s house and start suppression.
While that may be fighter fighters’ personal experience, is it true there is enough financing of anything other than suppression? Or even enough crews to work the actual fires in a timely manner? Maybe massive staging with equipment would not be so constantly using time and equipment if there were a system for supporting many local groups who are already on the spot? Seems various government entities are alway purchasing lands to preserve them without a corresponding increase in budgeting to manage them. https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2014/08/20/new-report-shows-budget-impact-rising-firefighting-costs
I watched infrastructure decay and personnel cutbacks while money was funnelled to road removal for environmental objectives that were lost in fire anyway.
I’m glad you ask. The short answer is no. The US forest service’s budget for the entire country is about 4.8 billion; less than Cal Fire’s budget just for California, which is about 5 billion. The Forest Service also pays their firefighters about half of what Cal Fire pays , and about a third of what local municipal fire departments pay. Starting wage for USFS is $13.30 per hour, so we are losing people left and right to other departments because of such a large pay difference. This makes it extremely hard to staff all of the fire crews, engines, etc. especially in remote areas like Zenia and Orleans, and there were more than a few modules that went unstaffed this year simply because they didn’t have personnel to staff them just in our area alone. It’s a huge problem and needs to be dealt with at the regional and national level or it’s going to continue to get worse and hamper the USFS ability to respond to fires.
On the topic of fuel reduction, this year was weird with Covid-19 and not as much was done because of staffing shortages and weather conditions, but the Six Rivers and Redwood National Park always do a lot of prescribed burning, thinning, and pile burning every fall/winter/spring.
I would also like to clarify that I would LOVE if there was no rivalry. If anything comes out of this I hope that it’s more cooperation between agencies. So many times Cal Fire has dispatched vegetation fires where my USFS engine is 1-2 hours closer than most of the Cal Fire engines responding, but they never ask for us! And other times when we are getting our butts kicked and could really use the help of Cal Fire but we don’t get them. Who knows where the rivalry comes from, I sure as hell don’t like it, but it needs to stop!
Can’t we all just get along and put out fires without political crap from BOTH agencies?
Can someone send this to the president so he can be passing out more rakes & brooms?
Having spent over a month inside the evacuation zone of National Forest lands involved in the August Complex, I can verify the accuracy of this information.
I was a firefighter on Santa Cruz Fire crew in the early eighties. We worked at night mop up. Everyone who could chose the night because it is easier. Everything you said makes so much sense to me. Thank you for the work you did to get this article out. I have smoke damage from those years and it is disheartening to spend summer in smoke every other year in California. It is horrible to hear about the boast. I look to the future and this manager facing his consequences. Thanks again.
Thank you Adam,Firefighter & Grumpy for adding honesty. Having Family WFF with USFS and CDF now CALFIRE as well as Volunteer Structural FF definitely some holes in Jim’s perspective.
IMHO, the FS type of fire ‘management’is how much money they can make off of the fires. To keep the fires burning and mismanaging the forests in the first place assures them more big bucks every fire season.
What they have, or have not, been doing in terms of all management has become a pattern over time so it is becomoing easier to question their methods.
Your comment is really offensive to the thousands of firefighters who came from all over to help us. Firefighters need to earn a living, true, but I assure you these people are not out here to “keep the fires burning” because: Money.
I think you’re projecting.
Doesn’t mean that it’s baseless even if you think it’s misdirected. There is cause to be unhappy with the situation. All bureaucracies become more inflexible over time when following procedure becomes safer than effectiveness.
ive never met a government employee who didn’t think his department was doing a good job. So far they’ve all been wrong about it. The only thing the government does well is collect taxes.
You got it backwards. I never met a government employee who thought that there wasn’t problems inside their organization. But they all are petty united in thinking the public is dangerously uniformed and unwilling to listen.
Cy Anse said: “Logging by itself solves nothing with wildland fire. That’s because trees and shrubs regrow after logging, particularly after clearcuts. This creates more fuel at the surface where fires predominantly burn.”
Science once told us the the earth was flat. If Cy is worried that logging something is going to come back as a very dangerous even-stand of low brush and weeds that becomes an extreme fire danger, please ask him what he thinks a one-million acre fire scar will come back as.
I whole-heartedly agree with Jim Robertson.
I’m am biting my tongue severely to not say what I really think about the forest “managers”.
But, I will say that It is damn poor “management” to let fire get this far out of control in the middle of a populated world. And NO, we are not going to go away. Try using more reality
Ernie,
Some areas that burned will indeed regrow similar to a clearcut with dense brush and regeneration that will increase surface fuel loads for a few decades until the trees get large enough to start shading out the understory and tall enough to withstand light surface fires. These areas are usually interspersed in a mosaic with other areas that didn’t burn as severely and still have living overstory trees that alter the understory regrowth. The point I was trying to make with the comment you quoted is that there is no single simple solution to managing fire like some folks seem to think.
Which brings up another point — we didn’t “let” fire get this far out of control in the middle of a populated world — we moved people into a system that has ALWAYS burned and then expected it to stop burning just because we moved there. Fires like we had this summer cannot be prevented, managed, or controlled because of the combination of factors like drought, fuel loads, winds, and high temperatures. We simply cannot stop them once they get started.
What we can do is try to manage fuel loads so that when fires do burn (and they will), they burn as cooler understory surface fires and not as large scale conflagrations. This is expensive however and we (society) have been unwilling to pay for it. We’d rather deal with the consequences than fund the kinds of projects on a scale that would have an appreciable impact.
But fire isn’t going away and there’s nothing we can do to completely prevent it in these ecosystems. When you move into these systems you have to prepare for fire. Blaming the problem on someone else isn’t going to solve anything nor is proposing simplistic solutions like logging. The right kind of logging in the right places at the right times is a valuable tool but only 1 small piece of the overall needs and by itself won’t solve anything.
That’s the point I was trying to make with a very simplistic statement and that’s the reality that folks living in the WUI are going to have to grasp. You live in a place that burns. Nothing is going to prevent that so you either adapt, prepare, or move.
If you are interested in learning more, “Fire in America” by Stephen Pyne is an historical overview of fire management in the US though it is a bit dense reading. It does give you perspective on what we’ve tried and how we ended up here.
“Fire in California’s Ecosystems” published by the University of California Press is a thorough review of the different ways fire behaves and impacts different systems in the state. It helps if you have a pretty broad background in science to get through it but there is a lot of good information in there.
Finally, both the local community college and HSU offer several courses related to the topic that could help interested folks understand the forest they live in a bit better.
There is an unsettling overconfidence in these posts of yours that the very officials who created this series of missteps throughout history have suddenly arrived at total enlightenment and this time got it all right. And if you mansplain enough the peasants will see. The deep reality is that science is a process that never arrives and certainly the interface between environment and humanity is the least close to settled science there is. If there are actual settled sciences at this point in history anyway.
Fair point, though I’m not defending any individual officials — just that the institutional knowledge has shifted over time. Bureaucracies change directions slowly. Sometimes very slowly.
It’s only been in the last few decades that people have really changed from talking solely about wildland fire from a suppression standpoint to talking about how it fits into the world as an ecological process and how our actions affect that role. Suppression is now just one component of fire management, if often the most visible one.
This entire tirade shows complete ignorance and is absolutely false on all levels. You sir, are completely uneducated on the inner culture and working of the USFS and it is blatant and irritating at the least. Your insults are directed to the boots on the ground and could not be more wrong. Good luck in your blissful life of ignorance.
Recently the Six Rivers National Forest moved its communications center out of the CALFIRE Fortuna Command Center because they refused to work together, use a single Computer Aided Dispatch System and have a single Aircraft Desk. This move is a total waste of money, creates serious firefighter safety issues and makes the coordination of resources to fires worst.
It’s terrible! Cal Fire kicked the USFS out because they needed more space. Things worked a lot smoother when the USFS and Cal Fire dispatchers were all in the same room and could just peak their head over and ask for resources. Wish they could have worked things out. Again, not really any animosity between the boots on the ground.
Wow, misinformation is pretty amazing here. For whomever cares about reality in this one comment, Cal fire told the forest to move out and this man’s rant is based in alcohol or something worse . Wow. Sad to see an attack on the hardest working folks you will find. These folks are too busy to tell their story, defend themselves, or play propaganda games because they are out there working under horrific conditions every day. You well meaning folks who seem to be pissed about this fire season (some rightfully so) may want to direct your concerns to elected officials and congress rather a the comment section of a web site. firefighters are doing the work on the ground with the resources they are provided. Land managers and “firefighters”are subject to the law and limited by their budgets. Land owners also have a choice and I am curious how many posting here have been part of any sort of solution in their local communities. Fore those who have not perhaps now is the time to sign up as a volunteer, participate in a fire safe council, or becoming a paid fs or ca firefighter and come see if you can hang and be the change they are prescribing. The pay is not good with the fs, but hey, you can also get shit on after yet another record breaking fire season by the local communities you serve…
Accountability and frustration should be pointed at your present and past administrations and elected representatives who hold the power to make any meaningful change in this matter. Don’t shit on firefighters and don’t oversimplify a complex situation.
Wow said: “I am curious how many posting here have been part of any sort of solution in their local communities.”
I was a volunteer firefighter for 39 years, a Rotarian for 39 years, and worked on most of our community projects. So, we are pretty much in lockstep in how great the firefighting crews are and that politicians are the real enemy.
I totally stand on my criticism of the “Management” of Forest Service fires.
I also would be a lot happier talking to someone who would tell me who they are… I can’t even have a conversation with someone wearing sunglasses.
Good to see your comment and the others here. Who knows why the Forest Service still, after all these years, fails to fully understand the capablity of smokejumpers? In my twenty-sever years as a jumper we put out around 98 percent of every fire we jumped, first night, hard push. The Klamath, thanks to Patty Grantham and some on her staff–and Josh Mathieson, the Redding Base Manager–finally (about 3 years ago) started using them more and catching more fires. Like I said below, as an Alaska jumper I jumped fires down here for years and NOT just two-manners or four-manners with a 1/4 acre fire and a snag. We jumped lots of fires at 5 to 15 (and more) acres, in heavy fuels, on steep slopes, cut line all night up both flanks, rounded the corners usually around 1AM, and tied in our lines by 3AM or so. We did that time after time after time. Just let me be the Regional Forester in R-5 for 1 year and I’ll show what the jumpers can do. They could stop dozens of fires and some that would certainly go big. The savings could easily exceed a billion. As it is now, some fires go unstaffed while the most physically fit and most experienced firefighters sit and yearn for a chance to prove their worth. My guess is that the Red-Salmon fire could have been jumped and caught in the first couple days. Now just look, who knows how many hundreds of millions it will run? My guess is likely $600,000,000 or more. Also, our local Fish Creek Lake fire was an example: they put (I think) 3 Redding jumpers on it and then said there were NO MORE AVAILABLE. Well, that was maybe true of Redding but what about Redmond, what about McCall, MIssoula, etc.? There’s hardly any time that some jumpers aren’t available somewhere. As I’ve said before, either the present-day Forest Service doesn’t know or they just don’t care. Leadership at the Wash. and Regional Office is what’s needed. A lot of fuss is being made about how complicated this wildfire problem is. Well, a whole lot of it is pretty damn simple. Just double the use of smokejumpers and see what happens.
Murry Taylor
The red salmon was jumped upon report and staffed. Also ran 12 air tankers that day or something crazy for an air show. I believe. Redmond jumpers were used because there we no other jumpers available. More firefighters are required… And Perhaps more importantly We need to adjust our legal authorities to meaningfully address the problem.
I would like to share my experience of Calfire backburning my land during the August Complex fire . My land partner and I live up against Mendocino National Forest, right on the interjurisdictional line between Calfire and the Forest Service responsibility zones. Prior to this we have been doing fuel load reduction restoration projects and fire wood as a business the last 6 years, in preparation for wildfires.
The mountain North of me had a portion of the fire held up behind its rocky ridges for weeks. we had left due to the evacuation orders. In late September a separate part of the complex moved into another watershed of the mountain, shielded from coming over by more rocky terrain.
Before leaving I posted my phone number at the top of my driveway. Days later , A local dozer operator saw the number and warned me a backburn was being planned. Calfire never informed me that they were going to burn my land. I called Calfire to inquire. They said they were unable to put me in touch with anyone who had information. Days later our neighbors informed us they had begun to burn in the area.
After repeated calls demanding information, Calfire finally put me in touch with someone who gave MISINFORMATION. I asked if they were going to burn my property.They said they were only going to burn the ridges above and around. The next day they lit lines connecting the burning ridges , and filled in the whole circle ( where I live ) with fire !!! This happened just 3 days before the rains came and snuffed the entire August Complex. It wasn’t until a week after torching the place that a Calfire personnel had finally contacted me, and let me know my structures had survived.
Mid October we were allowed to return home, coming back to what felt like a hate crime scene. The majority of the woods were crown fired, including old growth stands. Everywhere that was easy to get to was bulldozed or heavily torched. They disrespectfully dozed whole stands of living trees off of cliffs, leaving them hanging in the trees below. Living stands were also pushed into creek canyons, choking them full.They heavily burnt my last two USDA funded restoration forestry projects and burnt the other two that were in contract. I had clearly labeled all of the projects. Calfire made massive dozer lines on extremely steep slopes both on and off the property. They brought the dozer lines right up to eroding creek edges. They DO NOT remediate these lines except installing waterbars.
Many of their acts seem random and senseless.They bulldozed three and a half of our orchards. They dozed a major wetland, making it into a pond for their own use! It was full of tiger lillies, bleeding heart, woodwardia, wild ginger, and other select habitat plants, which may never return.They dumped toxic Phos Chek retardant into two active creeks, turning the pools a blood red color. It was dropped directly INTO the creeks , 1.5 miles in total. I called fish and Wildlife, they said its illegal to dump in creeks but not if Calfire does it. They had dropped a tree on my tractor rendering it inoperable. The metal front guard of the quad was strangely twisted by some impact. Trash from meals was everywhere, even after they had supposedly picked up a lot of garbage before our return. Feces and toilet paper were strewn about, including right at creek crossings.
The agency was only going to allow two days of repair on our 6 mile access road and not replace all of the proper drainages and creek crossings.We had to contest this and luckily they agreed to fix it. Cal fire accused us of lying about 4 culverts that were dozed out, even though they were clearly sitting mangled by the road side. We were never told that their claims department was in the area until AFTER claims left. Claims could have verified damage to the tractor, and other damages. Another issue we had was that we were very uncomfortable that they brought convict crews onto our private land. Calfire did not remove them when we requested to do so.
multiple employees told me the fire was
not coming over the mountain, but the decision to backburn was made anyway. Although the destruction was horrific, most of the Calfire employees we met on our return seemed to be kind people with good intentions. In contrast to the higher ups , who we never met, yet suffered the results of their decisions. Some of those who were here told us they keep switching people around on fires so there is no accountability. We heard on 2 occasions they relocated local firefighters to unfamiliar areas. It would only make sense to let firefighters become familiar with an area.
Since we live on the interjurisdictional line , they say this land will be used as a backfire zone again! This is very disheartening, I have no security knowing the restoration work that is done will make any difference since Calfires burning was far more destructive than a natural fire. In their employees own words , they doubly burnt it and were in a hurry to remove all the fuel ( forest) 3 days before the weather changed i .e. the rain.
High intensity backburns with the aim to remove fuel obliterates the living. If fire science is what happened on our land, then they need to revise their theory. Calfires own foresters lamented how thier employees are not trained in forest ecology. The more they burn the canopy of the forest, the more brush proliferates, creating an even more flammable ecosystem.
During the entire August fire we were keeping an eye on the “hotspot fire map” noticing that many unburnt areas were being burnt. Basically filling in the “islands” on the fire maps. The hot spots were obviously strategically placed, often forming a ring then filled in with fire like at our place.
On the morning briefings that were publicly broadcasted, our government agencies often claimed that the plan for the day was to ” fill in the unburnt areas with fire”. It appears that their goal was methodically accomplished resulting in “California’s largest wildfire” .
Backburning activities by the USFS and Calfire have proliferated these fires. Repeatedly we hear stories how they get out of control and create more damage. As time goes on neighbors and friends have told more and more stories of those who live on the edge of the wilds suffering from not wildfire, but the backburns. Sometimes they will back burn even AFTER the wildfire has moved through an area.
Communities on the edges are NOT there to be sacrifice points to protect the more populated regions. If they choose to sacrifice us, we must be compensated and be able to hold them responsible for any negligence
I hope my shared experience is received with openness, although the content is rousing, it is my intention to share the facts of what I have seen. I hope that others who have been afraid , or feel alone in this matter will come forward so we may help prevent this sort of mismanagement in the future.
Thank you, Mr. Robertson, I attempted to make your points previously in response to another letter. You, of course, made them much more eloquently. I do hope you have driven them home.
In addition, I hope people can get past the thought that this is a Trump versus Biden issue and understand that the legislation needs to go through and that the agencies, as well as, the populace need to work TOGETHER in order to take care of OUR NATIONAL FORESTS, homes, people, environment and animals!
Cy, Bonnie has spent plenty of time up in a tower recognizing where fires have started and how hard it is to bring teams out in the middle of the night…. So yes, she does know as ….do you… but it has to be done.
Mariah girl, thanks for lending Credence it has happened to many!
As mentioned before, the goal is not to fight amongst ourselves but to write into our legislators. I can’t remember a time when the USFS has not behaved in the manner mentioned in the letter.
You can also reference all of our responses to Mr. Ryan. They have already been heavily addressed. He does not seem to feel at all noticed, however. He may have preferred the USFS policy method as I suggested earlier on his comment section.
I am still happier that he and his home are still viable.