Dr. Frankovich Says Politics Have Made The COVID Response Difficult, Talks About Workplace Safety After an Exposure, And More

For this type of report, the Emergency Operations Center takes the questions from the media, and staff reads them on camera to officials for their response. The resulting video, called a Media Availability, is then provided to news outlets at the end of the day.

Here are some of the main points covered in the October 16th Media Availability session with a summary of answers from Humboldt County Health Officer Dr. Teresa Frankovich, followed by questions we would have liked to ask in response if appropriate.

Question by The North Coast Journal:  We understand the OptumServe site has been extended by the state at least through November, but that its status beyond then is uncertain. If the site were to close, how would that impact overall testing capacity in Humboldt County and public health’s ability to set up mobile testing in outlying areas?

Answer by Dr. Frankovich:

Well, it’s correct. Right now we understand it is going to be operational through November. It’s been really helpful because it’s allowed us some time to get our regional testing strategy set up and we expect that to be operational in November. So I think we’ll have a little bit of overlap regardless of what happens long term with Optum. I think our capacity is going to be well served between our in-house Humboldt County Public Health lab and the new regional testing partnership. Between the two we should be able to test up to 700 people per day and I think that will more than meet our needs going forward and we’ll be able to do it with the turnaround time that’s 24 to 72 hours so I think it’ll actually serve the community really well and the ability to do a mobile testing site will be really helpful. Our goal in the long term is to have both a stable site centrally as well as mobile testing capacity and but we’re starting with just our mobile while Optum is in place and then we will build from there.

1 mins 35 sec in: 

Question by The North Coast Journal:  It seems the state’s new Equity Metric hinges largely on counties’ capacity to test in the lowest quartile of zip codes under the Health Places Index, which includes Hoopa and southeastern Humboldt County locally. Does the existence of this metric change testing strategies in these areas and, if so, how?

Answer by Dr. Frankovich: 

We’ve been working since the beginning of the pandemic, really, to try and find ways to increase access in outlying areas throughout the county.  We’ve worked really closely with Hoopa and the tribal clinic there, Dr. Eva Smith and the crew to try and make sure that people did have testing in that area.  So, they do have a rapid testing capacity there that is good for symptomatic individuals, not very good for asymptomatic, so on contact investigations and along the way we provided backup testing for Hoopa, and confirmatory testing. So in addition when Hoopa had an outbreak, we worked with them and they were able to bring in testing to do a large portion of the community really within a week and so that really helped in that instance as well.  

Southeastern Humboldt is tougher, and so we have worked to take our mobile team off site as possible, to you know, not only to Fortuna, but to Redway, into Garberville- the hospital in Garberville, Gerald Phelps, does have some testing capacity and the clinic in Redway does as well. And then we coordinate with them to try and enhance testing there.  Our new regional partnership I think, though, will allow us even more latitude and being able to get to some communities that need more access. 

3 mins 35 sec in:   

Question by The Redheaded Blackbelt:  If an office staff member is being isolated at home due to a confirmed COVID exposure- while awaiting test results, what is the recommended protocol for the office staff who are not directly exposed but are at some risk, and what measures should an employer take to promote safety in an office setting following a confirmed exposure to the office? 

Answer by Dr. Frankovich: 

Well, there are a few points in there. So I would say at first, if there, if someone has been exposed to a confirmed case, they are placed in quarantine by public health and so they would not be in the workplace and typically those individuals are tested so that we can confirm that they actually were not positive in the workplace as well.  If we determine that that individual actually is a positive case, we work with the employer in the workplace to ensure that everyone is identified who may be in exposure, not everyone in the workplace necessarily would be because one thing that people sometimes forget, is that we really have to look at the infectious period for the individual who was on site and who did they have contact with.  And so you know, it’s really an ongoing collaboration between public health and the employer and then the employer is able to communicate to the workplace as needed, in addition to public health reaching out to individual contacts so that people are well informed.

5 mins in: 

Question by The Redheaded Blackbelt:  Is it appropriate for an employer to restrict inter-office communications between coworkers regarding a potential exposure or cluster of in-office cases for fear of having a panic within the workplace? To what degree are individuals obligated to be forthcoming about their symptoms and exposure scenario, taking into consideration HIPAA regulations?  

Answer by Dr. Frankovich: 

So, to the first question or first portion of the question-  you know, again, I think people need to understand that if there is a case, part of the case investigation is identifying where that individual’s been if there’s a workplace exposure, then we are working with that employer to identify cases or potential exposures in that environment.  And there really, ideally, should be good communication so there really isn’t any need for people to be trying to sort of parse out rumors, and figure out what is true- and there I think needs to be a good understanding among workers that if public health has a concern, we are communicating that.  

Oh, I’m sorry- the second part of that question- being forthcoming about symptoms and exposures. All of us are really dependent on people providing good, accurate histories, and making sure that they protect their co-workers as well as family and friends by, you know, identifying who may be at risk so that we can take the appropriate steps.

6 mins 25 sec in:   

Question by The Redheaded Blackbelt:  In a contact tracing scenario involving a third-person exposure, generally how many people does a single exposure end up affecting, and how often do you see an exponential growth of an outbreak stem from a single exposure?

Answer by Dr. Frankovich:

Well, when we looked at contact tracing over time here we’ve seen a really broad broad range of secondary cases related to it we’ve had everything from cases where an individual recognized quickly they had been exposed, they quarantined themselves they were tested positive, isolated, and there really was no exposure.  For instance, outside the household we have other cases, the gathering we had mentioned earlier this season- where a gathering of 50 people resulted in an additional over 30 cases- and so it, again, we don’t track them in quite that way, by how many per case and then track rates, but we’ve seen a broad range.  Most cases are in the middle, and so it’s not uncommon for us to have four or five, six additional cases related to a single case, as well as all the individuals who are in quarantine. 

7 mins 45 sec in: 

Question by The Redheaded Blackbelt:  Is it required for an open business to keep a register of visitors/clients/patrons at the front door for recording temperatures, PPE check, and names?  Can you explain why this might be useful to a business owner as well as for contact tracers?

Answer by Dr. Frankovich: 

So, all businesses that are able to be open at this time are to have created a plan based on the state guidance documents, and those plans are reviewed and approved by our joint information center. Many of the components of this are suggested guidances for businesses, but not requirements.  For instance they are not required to take the temperature at the door per se in all business settings.  What I would tell people is that obviously, if you’re operating certain types of businesses, having an ability to identify patrons who are there is extremely helpful.  If we know, for instance, that someone is in a setting where there might be an extended period of contact- let me actually mention places of worship, because that’s a really easy example to talk about -is if we have someone who’s ill when they’re attending a service, and gets diagnosed with COVID or is in their infectious period when they attend and get diagnosed with COVID, if we can have an understanding of who was at that service on that particular day, we can reach out to those individuals in a meaningful way and only the people who would be potentially considered at risk, and that really informs a case investigation.  If we have no idea who may have been there at that time, it requires much bigger efforts in terms of contacting many more people or putting out an announcement for people to contact public health, so in those settings keeping a sign-in log for people is really helpful.  In some business settings things like credit card receipts things like that can be useful, but it’s very labor-intensive.

9 mins 45 sec in:   

Question by Reporter Daniel Mintz:  The last week has seen low numbers of daily cases, except for October 14, when eight new cases were confirmed, the highest daily increase in a month.  Did confirmation of all or part of those cases stem from a specific contact tracing investigation or are they unrelated to each other?

Answer by Dr. Frankovich: 

In that particular case, I believe that that a number of those new positives were expected in the sense that they were related to a current case investigation. I can’t say that all of them were but I can say that when we get a large number of cases all at a single time often it’s because we’re directing individuals in to get tested who have been exposed or we believe have been exposed.

10 mins 35 sec in: 

Question by Reporter Daniel Mintz:  What are the rates of false positives and false negatives in local testing?

I would say that in our local testing both here in our Humboldt County Public Health Lab and actually for Optum, which sends it out to Quest- I believe it’s a PCR test which actually has, you know, very high sensitivity and specificity.  And so we don’t have significant concerns about false positives or negatives in that setting.  What’s more of concern is that people, we are recognizing as we go through the pandemic, people carry varying levels of virus at different times and so it may be possible to be really shedding virus highly at a time get tested and be positive, but have very low levels at some point in your course, and be harder to detect.  This becomes an issue primarily when we are dealing with rapid tests that are not as highly sensitive or specific as our PCR tests and there, it really, there are increasing possibilities of false positives or false negatives with some of that testing.  It’s getting better and using it as appropriate, for instance using those rapid tests in individuals who are symptomatic where you’re more likely to get an accurate test result, it improves the performance of the test.  So we look at all of that over time, but as we look at testing strategies going forward and the field of choices expands, we’re looking for tests that will give us a good sensitivity and specificity, or at least the best that’s available out in the community.

12 mins 25 sec in:   

Question by The Times-Standard:  Do new cases this week have the potential to change the state or county’s tier designation?

Answer by Dr. Frankovich:

Currently, looking at our data I don’t anticipate a change next week in our tier status.

12 mins 35 sec in: 

Question by The Times-Standard:  Based on Trump’s town hall comments on masks, is it more effective to wear a mask improperly than not at all? 

Answer by Dr. Frankovich:

Well, I would certainly argue that it’s not difficult to wear a mask properly, and everyone should. 

12 mins 55 sec in:   

Question by North Coast News:  With the Presidential election on the horizon, do you think that the politicization of COVID-19 has affected public health’s response to the virus nationwide- either by inflating or minimizing the impacts of COVID-19?  Do you think we could have had a more effective response without the politicization? 

Answer by Dr. Frankovich: 

Well, the short answer is yes. I think that it’s, it’s again, as I’ve mentioned before, it’s challenging to try and provide guidance and navigate this when it’s not simply science driving the process and I think that there has been difficulties with that from the outset with this pandemic, and I’m fairly certain that that has had an impact on how things have rolled out across the country.  I think it’s challenging for citizens to make wise choices when it, again, the science is sort of being pulled and not accepted at face value.  For instance, facial coverings became very political and really it should be a simple public health measure early on in the pandemic.  We did not understand the importance of facial coverings in helping to control spread.  As we do in science, we watch what’s happening, and we study it and then we amend what we do based on what we find.  And what we found was, it’s extremely important.  We’ve adjusted the guidance, and without a political climate I think it would be easier for people to hear that and move forward. 

14 mins 45 sec in: 

Question by North Coast News:  With Humboldt County now allowing in-person weddings, do you recommend couples still only participate in virtual weddings? Or is it a safe enough bet to host in-person ceremonies with safety modifications in place? Do you see this guidance changing anytime soon and forcing couples to change their plans yet again if they choose to host in-person ceremonies now?

 Answer by Dr. Frankovich: 

Well, again, for weddings- weddings themselves can occur, and the new state guidance, you know, goes into more of the specifics about how that can happen.  Obviously it is always safer not to have a gathering, we just know that to be true in COVID.  If there is a gathering, making it as small as possible and intersecting as few households as possible is really important under the new gathering guidance.  

A good recommendation would be no more than three households and then inviting other guests virtually would be the best option.  Personally, I would not want to gather, you know, as much as I love attending a beautiful big wedding- I would not want to gather my extended family, relatives and friends, many of whom may have underlying vulnerabilities or whom are older- to pull them together into a space where they might be at risk.  And I would further say that even younger individuals we know can have serious illness with COVID, so bottom line is a wedding service is permitted, reception parties are not, and the smaller the safer,if it’s outside it’s safer, and putting all the safety precautions in place that we’ve talked about add safety as well.

16 mins 25 sec in:   

Question by North Coast News:  Now that case rates based by Zip code are being reported, are there any data points that surprise you? Are cases higher/lower in areas that you weren’t expecting?

I would say no, not from our end,  although we haven’t been looking at data by zip code per se through this pandemic because it’s just not a construct that’s been really helpful for us.  We’re obviously aware of where cases are occurring and watching that, but as we’ve said, since the beginning of this, the- you know, it’s really important for people to understand that cases are assigned by zip code. You might work in or live in Arcata, you might work in Eureka, or you may live in Eureka and work in Fortuna and it… or you may socialize with someone or have been with someone who’s in another county or you became ill because you traveled to Utah or Arizona or Idaho or any other state or within the state of California, so seeing where the case is assigned to a resident tells you nothing about where the person was exposed to COVID, and I do worry about people having a false sense of “this zip code is safe this one is not”…  It’s also important for people to recognize that these are absolute case numbers that we’re reporting and it is completely expected that a higher density area, for instance Eureka, would have more cases than a very sparsely populated remote area.  So I just think it’s important, it gives you some sense of where our cases are, but I really think we need to be careful about how we use that to navigate this pandemic.

18 mins 20 sec in: 

Question by North Coast News:  Being right on the cusp of moving to the yellow tier last week, do you anticipate us remaining in the yellow tier, or falling back into the orange tier?

Answer by Dr. Frankovich:

Well, as I mentioned just a bit ago, I think this coming week will be okay since we’re now sitting at Friday and the data is calculated on Monday by the state, and released on Tuesday.  I do want to mention however, that through the pandemic it is very likely that we will bounce between tiers, arriving at the yellow tier. We will strive and do our best and with everyone’s assistance we can work to stay in yellow, but an outbreak of, you know significant size, we’ve seen for instance in neighboring counties where within a very short period of time you can go from a manageable case rate to one that is much higher, and so it really is important for people to understand it is very likely that we will move between tiers, and it is incredibly important we do everything we can so that we can remain where we are as long as possible, and for as much of the duration of this pandemic as possible. 

19 mins 35 sec in:   

Question by Lost Coast Outpost:  Gov. Gavin Newsom recently suggested that people eating out should wear their masks between bites. With restaurant wait staff now working long shifts indoors around people spending most of their meals unmasked, do you agree with the governor’s recommendation?

Answer by Dr. Frankovich: 

Well, I think it’s a good question in the sense that we know as we’re bringing people together into spaces that there is more risk of transmission and restaurant guidance for instance really does talk about the fact that restaurants need to have limited capacity so that they’re able to spread out tables and spread out groups from each other to decrease transmission they’re also you know hand sanitizer other things in place disposable menus for instance to help reduce transmission I think that wearing a mask is important to do I think that the more you can wear your mask particularly in an indoor setting the safer it is and so I think when people are you know sitting at their table when they are not eating their food I think masking is is really helpful to do as much as possible.

Community members with questions or concerns are encouraged to call 441-5000 for additional information.  

For the most recent state and national COVID-19 information, visit cdc.gov or cdph.ca.gov

Local information is available at the Humboldt County COVID-19 Data Dashboard: humboldtgov.org/dashboard, on Facebook @HumCoCOVID19, Instagram @HumCoCOVID19, Twitter @HumCoCOVID19, and Humboldt Health Alert humboldtgov.org/HumboldtHealthAlert

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Death by Statistics
Guest
Death by Statistics
3 years ago

DR. HEIKO SCHÖNING was banned for contradicting the WHO.

Oct 10, 2020 conference

Why are we unable to listen to dissenting opinions from highly educated doctors, etc?

Why are people so convinced that the agenda is freedofreedom friendly?

https://youtu.be/DeyTuz-NXOU

Kurt Russel
Guest
Kurt Russel
3 years ago

Fucking Clones suck

Screwed Sideways
Guest
Screwed Sideways
3 years ago

Dr Frankovich:

So sorry that local whack-jobs made your life difficult.

Becoming a Doctor in the first place, is enough to make most people crazy…

I thought you quit.

Nobody had any experience at all with CoV-19, a year ago, and now, we are all still powerless…

Politics or not, nothing done by any government entity has done any apparent good, and, we are well and justly due for a massive second wave.

In a year, no vaccine, no good treatment approved by the FDA, and endless government drivel, which YOU are the mouthpiece for!

Please, shut up, go home, resume your comfortable little Peds Practice! Its a job for the other doctors, now…

And whatever happened with the UIHS Testing Facility? According to their internal website, they never hired a “Coordinator”, any “CLS’s” and the whole project has been placed on hold!

Shall we all wait a year for testing? “Optum Serve” is not there as an either an “Optimal” or “Service” oriented provider, it was slopped together by Health Net in order to scam Federal Money. The testing of persons with no symptoms is a gigantic waste of resources.

It’s really too bad that there are so few public clinics to assist with this epidemic, and that our government is so completely incompetent to do anything at all except throw trillions of dollars down the toilet with crazy programs in an attempt to mollify the population…

You, Doctor Frankovich, are a perfect indicator of what is wrong with State, Federal and local healthcare! The Cares Act gave millions to crappy little hospitals like Jerold Phelps, and the money has been used for general expenses instead of to provide care and testing for the communities.

Please explain, Dr F! We are waiting for a solution.

Willie Bray
Guest
3 years ago

🕯🌳You already answered your own question ( Federal) and who controls the federal government?

Guest
Guest
Guest
3 years ago
Reply to  Willie Bray

As if the Federal government is going to control the State. That’s like saying the bank who lends you the money to buy a house is responsible for controlling what you do in the house you buy. That is the great delusion of the incompetent – that someone other than themselves is able and willing to protect them from their own failures.

Lone Ranger
Guest
Lone Ranger
3 years ago
Reply to  Guest

But we got ventilators, can’t make this shit up, thanks to state officials, we got ventilators. Whats the chance of survival once on a ventilator? What a joke.

Screwed Sideways
Guest
Screwed Sideways
3 years ago
Reply to  Lone Ranger

About 1 in 4. Significant after effects, up to and including expiration may well occur anyway…

Only Trump seems to have gotten the real treatment:

The CoV-19 Monoclonal Antibody, by Regeneron, who developed the treatment to help with Ebola…

Believe me, you can’t afford it…

Guest
Guest
Guest
3 years ago

Amazed that the people keep on not dying of covid-19 here despite getting no “real treatment.”

😒
Guest
😒
3 years ago

First off, how are you going to be sympathetic to a doctor and in the same breath be a rudey. She resigned, but is staying on to to hire, train, provide guidance and counseling to the next. Secondly, UIHS does have testing and there is a guy in charge of it. Just FYI. My husband was tested there last week. You have to be a tribal member or spouse/family of the member to be tested there.

Nogueyjose
Guest
Nogueyjose
3 years ago

Of course politics made it difficult.

If the government didn’t overstep their boundaries and try to take over our lives and tell us how to live our lives by saying stuff like “you don’t know whats good for you but the government does”, then we wouldn’t be protesting it so much.

Look at the jackasses in charge od Australia right now. New Zeland and England too!

Weird how countries that are not part of the UN or EU had no pandemic and it’s business as usual.

qanon person are you?
Guest
qanon person are you?
3 years ago
Reply to  Nogueyjose

If the coordination of a response to pandemic is outside of the governments bounds, then we have no use for government at all. The undeniable fact in this case is that a good portion of the population does not know (or care) whats good for them, and their ignorant actions affect others.

Countries that are not part of the EU have had worse experiences that those in the EU. The just don’t have the institution in place to gather data. Australia, New Zealand and The UK have done better than the USA.

Guest
Guest
Guest
3 years ago

Or not . “In absolute terms, reported cases in Europe surpassed the United States last month and cases within the 27-member European Union were higher than U.S. cases by last week. But Europe is larger than the United States and only now has more cases relative to its population.” https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/covid-19-cases-hit-records-in-europe-surpassing-the-united-states-per-capita/

And the other places mentioned have a lot more border control and more restrictive immigration policies that the US would ever tolerate, are less diverse, are have no common borders and so have been better able isolate themselves much more successfully than the US ever could.

Nevertrustacop
Guest
Nevertrustacop
3 years ago

Day 200+ of a 2 week lockdown. You are the official mouthpiece of liars and thieves. Guess that makes you a liar and a thief.
“Obey the new normal or you hate science” This is the level of conversation you hacks have. Open your little meetings to the the public and answer some real questions.

hmm
Guest
hmm
3 years ago
Reply to  Nevertrustacop

It could have been a 6 week lockdown but we simply absolutely suck as a society. The longer ignorant science deniers continue your juvenile actions the longer this will go on.

Anne
Guest
Anne
3 years ago
Reply to  hmm

Thank you for your service, Dr. Frankovich. Accepting what is is obviously challenging for some but we need to hear clear, no nonsense information on ways to keep ourselves and others safe. Thank you for being a calm and reasonable source for this information.

Death by Statistics
Guest
Death by Statistics
3 years ago
Reply to  Anne

Anne, You Need To Learn 3D Chess.

This isn’t just about a flu virus.

This is about changing the social contract .

Here’s an overview for non economic minded individuals.

https://youtu.be/1xO723gH7Go

Nevertrustacop
Guest
Nevertrustacop
3 years ago
Reply to  hmm

“calm and reasonable” “no nonsense information” this lady has done nothing but regurgitate non answers like a true politician while demanding more control over our lives.

She and you have advocated for the death of millions of medical patients who have had no access to preventative or regular care for months now, yes you have advocated this by your support of who is “essential”. There are hundreds of millions living hand to mouth who have been guaranteed a short brutal socially isolated starvation thanks to your great virtue and global governance power.

If “ignorant science deniers” were in fact as wrong and dangerous as you all claim “darwin awards” would promptly fix the social issue. But alas, it is not deadly enough for such realities. Too bad, as youd rather have your political enemies die to prove your point. Hell, i sincerely wish this crap was real then at least i wouldnt be witness to this empire of lies and order followers which makes me want to catch something to cure my skepticism.

And let me just go ahead and rebut the same trash emotional outrage of “if someone you cared about died of this” or “have some respect and honor the victims and their families”. What about you?! Are you caring about the millions of deaths and suffering due to your authority worship? And what about their families? Do you not honor or care about them? Like i said in the begining, liars and thieves. Taking what is not theirs to take. Hypocrisy with a price paid in blood.

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/lifestyle/coronavirus-europe/pandemic-puts-global-progress-against-tuberculosis-at-risk-who/ar-BB1a1gle

Guest
Guest
Guest
3 years ago

What if the Corona virus, like the flu, is not amenable to vaccination? What if this virus circulates, in one form or another, forever? Unlike the medieval black plague, which changed society by massive death rates, this pandemic of much, much less virulence, will change society by the ease of communicating. Somehow the easy control of the carrot of promises that science can save everyone soon in combination with the prevalent stick of pervasive horror stories about the disease has changed society in unnatural ways by government management out of all proportion to the actual threat. Already people are adjusting to the artificiality.

Fun with facts!
Guest
Fun with facts!
3 years ago
Reply to  Guest

“Already people are adjusting to the artificiality.”

That’s been the plan all along, already tested tried and true, on paper for all to see for over twenty five years. Agenda 21/30/50 is no theory, it’s a conspiracy in progress. Neither “party” will even say the A-word, no local politician will dare risk losing their status by bringing it up, even though they’re participating in a relatively clandestine manner.

In Humboldt County, we’re going to see A LOT more people move here from out of the area, living in less space, exponentially increasing all social pratfalls of pollution etc. Cost of living is skyrocketting while quality of life degrades.

Way less elbow room or peace and quiet for everybody.

Eventually we’re going to see the drought cripple us as though this land was never a rainforest.

And the millenials and younger will be none the wiser. They’re the unwitting subjects of the science of “getting used to it”.

Smoke em if you got em, good morning!

Geist
Guest
Geist
3 years ago

He’s four or five different crazy-uncle sock puppet accounts trying to look like different people, turning Kym Kemp’s forums into CraigsList Rants and Raves. He sucks.

Fun with facts!
Guest
Fun with facts!
3 years ago

See how it works? Instant ridicule.

lol well . . .
Guest
lol well . . .
3 years ago
Reply to  Guest

If this virus becomes annual, we will have to adapt. Simple as that. There is no promise that science can save everyone. Not sure what you misconstrued to come up with that.

The government management has been wildly out of proportion, in that there has been no coordinated federal responce to the virus, in contrast to nations who have had fewer deaths per capita and less economic impact.

Fun with facts!
Guest
Fun with facts!
3 years ago
Reply to  lol well . . .

I haven’t misconstrued anything. The timing of lockdown, for whatever reason, is forcing what you might call “global coordination” on point with agenda 21. Perfectly on point. “Sustainable development” is an oxymoron. You can only remove so many plants from an aquarium, while simultaneously adding more fish, before the balance collapses. The long term “sustainability” of Humboldt isn’t of concern to global interests who take a dime from pur dollar. It’s a money funnel scam of worldly proportion. All in writing.

Specialist
Guest
Specialist
3 years ago

Truth by FWF

Rod Gass
Guest
Rod Gass
3 years ago

//this virus … will change society by the ease of communicating.//

Great topic.

The transmission of infection is bad for sure, but I think we could manage that. It’s basic medicine.

The communication of the perils and panic is worth discussion. The communication of information is at this moment, the best our world has ever witnessed. We just need a means to better sort the right/wrong.

As with everything else, the digital age causes major problems. Which God to believe? There’re so many, many forks in the trail. Any body can find an easy path to understanding this killer but, which truth is correct? It just might be trial and error.

Fun with facts!
Guest
Fun with facts!
3 years ago

By this point the Q &A has become redundant. Might as well let the good doctor read he same lines every week. Seriously.

mlr the giant squirrel in Eureka
Guest
mlr the giant squirrel in Eureka
3 years ago

The vaccine needs to go to the oldest amongst us first and so forth. I’m middle age so I know this means I wait a year but the most vulnerable must be protected first and foremost. I’ll recover, like I always do, if I catch it while waiting.

Pharmstheproblem
Guest
Pharmstheproblem
3 years ago

Love how they always bring up science…. There are always two sides of science one for one against….. But we are forced to listen to only one side! How about both sides present their findings and then a discussion and find the middle……

HotCoffee
Guest
HotCoffee
3 years ago

It’s a big problem when Big Tech decides what science you can see and what science you can’t see.
Your Nanny will decide whats good and what isn’t.

I was censored by wordpress, who even knew they were / are censoring?

1984…thanks for the heads up Orwell.

HotCoffee
Guest
HotCoffee
3 years ago

In Search of Truth

We all take it for granted that Science represents Truth or at least believe that Science takes us closer to Truth. Of course by definition that is what Science stands for. But is that what happening in practice? Is that stuff which we are all made to study, chant and believe as Science really taking us closer to Truth?

Obviously we can’t conclude anything as right or wrong just by looking at the surface or by the label that comes with it. Just because some book comes with the label ‘science’, that doesn’t become science or truth. And just because something is written by a person who is employed as a scientist, that doesn’t automatically become science. Similarly just because something is accepted by the majority, that again doesn’t become truth. Rather it is Logic and evidence which should decide whether something really constitutes science and whether some scientific theory really represents Truth.

So, to know whether our scientific theories are true and whether our science is really helping us understand our Universe, first we need to carefully study and understand those theories that get taught as science (rather than simply recite them only to reproduce in exams), critically analyze the information and see what the evidence and logic is actually saying. Unlike the prevailing notion amongst the lay public, true science is never too difficult to understand, however deep that goes or however complicated that may sound. To understand Nature, what is required is just commonsense and simple reasoning.

https://sciencevstruth.com/

HotCoffee
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HotCoffee
3 years ago

snip

I’m a factual relativist. I abandoned the idea of facts and “the truth” some time last year. I wrote a whole science book, The Memory Illusion, almost never mentioning the terms fact and truth. Why? Because much like Santa Claus and unicorns, facts don’t actually exist. At least not in the way we commonly think of them.

We think of a fact as an irrefutable truth. According to the Oxford dictionary, a fact is “a thing that is known or proved to be true.” And where does proof come from? Science?

Well, let me tell you a secret about science; scientists don’t prove anything. What we do is collect evidence that supports or does not support our predictions. Sometimes we do things over and over again, in meaningfully different ways, and we get the same results, and then we call these findings facts. And, when we have lots and lots of replications and variations that all say the same thing, then we talk about theories or laws. Like evolution. Or gravity. But at no point have we proved anything.

Don’t get me wrong. The scientific method is totally awesome. It is unparalleled in its ability to get answers that can help us extend life, optimize output, and understand our own brains.

Scientists slowly break down the illusions created by our biased human perception, revealing what the universe actually looks like. In an incremental progress, each study adds a tiny bit of insight to our understanding.

But while the magic of science should make our eyes twinkle with excitement, we can still argue that the findings from every scientific experiment ever conducted are wrong, almost by necessity. They are just a bit more right (hopefully) than preceding studies.

That’s the beauty of science. It’s inherently self-critical and self-correcting. The status quo is never good enough. Scientists want to know more, always. And, lucky for them, there is always more to know.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/im-a-scientist-and-i-dont-believe-in-facts/

Free estimates
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Free estimates
3 years ago
Reply to  HotCoffee

Excellent contribution. Thanks, hot coffee!

HotCoffee
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HotCoffee
3 years ago
Reply to  Free estimates

You’re quite welcome Free e.
Thanks for reading.

researcher
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researcher
3 years ago
Reply to  HotCoffee

Agreed. Science claims things to be fact that are theories. By definition a theory is a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena, a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation, an unproved assumption. What one doesn’t see there is the word fact.

I always get in trouble when I say this but I don’t believe any current version of evolution, be it crawling out of the muck a billion years ago or a world created by a creator 10,000 years ago. I believe something else went on to come to what we are today. I have a couple of theories but nothing worth mentioning. But if I try to explore this topic in conversation I am immediately hit with “BUT EVOLUTON IS A PROVEN FACT”. No, it is still just a theory that alot of thought has gone into, but still just a theory. It is not a fact.

Its like the scales are weighted and if it dips far enough towards fact then by golly lets call it that.

HotCoffee
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HotCoffee
3 years ago
Reply to  researcher

4 convincing scientific theories that fooled scientists for decades

Peter Vickers of Durham University writes about four times when scientific theories appeared to be correct, but were far from reality.

There are surprisingly few proven facts in science. Instead, scientists often talk about how much evidence there is for their theories. The more evidence, the stronger the theory and the more accepted it becomes.

Scientists are usually very careful to accumulate lots of evidence and test their theories thoroughly. But the history of science has some key, if rare, examples of evidence misleading enough to bring a whole scientific community to believe something later considered to be radically false.

A common way scientists gather evidence is to make a prediction about something and see if they’re correct. The problem occurs when the prediction is right but the theory they use to make it is wrong.

Predictions that seem particularly risky but turn out to be true look like very strong evidence, as Karl Popper and other philosophers of science have often stressed. But history shows us that even very strong evidence can be misleading.
The ‘fish stage’ of human development

In 1811, Johann Friedrich Meckel successfully predicted that human embryos would have gill slits. This risky prediction seemed to provide very strong evidence for his theory that humans, as the ‘most perfect’ organisms, develop via stages corresponding to each of the ‘less perfect’ species (fish, amphibians, reptiles and so on).

As it happens, early human embryos do have slits in their necks that look like gills. This is almost certainly because humans and fish share some DNA and a common ancestor, not because we go though a ‘fish stage’ in our mothers’ wombs as part of our development towards biological perfection.

But the evidence available after embryo neck slits were discovered in 1827 certainly made Mecklel’s theory appear persuasive. It was only when Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution took hold in the second half of the 19th century that it became totally clear that Meckel’s idea of a linear series of biological perfection was completely untenable.
A planet built for humans

Another example is 18th-century geologist James Hutton’s idea that the Earth is like an organic body that constantly reproduces itself to indefinitely provide a habitable world for humans.

On the basis of his theory, Hutton successfully predicted that veins of granite would be found passing through and mixing with other layers of rock. He also successfully predicted angular uncomformities, when new rock layers rest at a very different angle to the older layers immediately beneath them.

Hutton’s theory was wrong in all sorts of ways compared to contemporary thinking. Most obviously, the Earth is not designed for human beings. And, of course, Hutton had no concept of plate tectonics.

But despite his theoretical errors the predictions were successful, and so highly influential. In fact, his theory was still a serious candidate for the truth 100 years later. It was only finally pushed out in the late 19th century by the contracting Earth theory, which (mistakenly) explained valley and mountain formations in terms of an Earth that gradually contracts as it cools.

The theory that fooled Einstein

and more

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/innovation/scientific-theories-proven-wrong

Guest
Guest
Guest
3 years ago
Reply to  researcher

What science doesn’t do – “Science doesn’t tell you how to use scientific knowledge…” Too many people here use the word “Science” (with a capital “s”) like some sort of magic talisman, without understanding that it is not always possible to apply it to the real world. Which is a heck of a lot more complicated than the variables scientists use. https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

mlr the giant squirrel in Eureka
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mlr the giant squirrel in Eureka
3 years ago
Reply to  researcher

Man is the evolved spawn of alien life. QED. Don’t agree? Use science and prove me wrong.

HotCoffee
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HotCoffee
3 years ago

Anyone who works in research can recount with reimagined sorrow the nights they spent at the lab bench, desperately trying to get results for a presentation the next morning. I remember sitting in the basement of the chemistry building here at the University of Toronto, way past witching hour, injecting sample after sample into one of our instruments.

When the results finally came out, they showed that my experiment had worked – the months of chemical synthesis needed to set it up had been worth it. The next morning, I triumphantly showed the results to my supervisor. He too was excited about what this meant for my project. Neither of us scrutinized the results, because it was what we wanted to see. Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth, right?

But not questioning results because they’re what you want to see is the first step down a slippery slope. When I checked the data again, I’d mistyped a data point – the results weren’t as spectacular as I’d thought. Here, the error was caught early, but the temptation to ignore mistakes becomes greater as the incorrect result becomes the starting point for subsequent research.

Researchers – like everyone else – don’t like admitting that we’re wrong

No one wants to talk about this in the science community. We’re scientists; of course we check all our results! We’d always announce a correction if we discovered an error in published work, obviously. But the stark truth is that researchers – like everyone else – don’t like admitting that we’re wrong. And the ‘publish or perish’ culture – i.e. the link between the amount of papers a scientist publishes and career success – has created a motivation for researchers to prioritize quantity over quality. Furthermore, many funding grants are given for a specific research goal, meaning scientists have very little room to maneuver after finding out that a hypothesis is wrong.

I would argue that the pressure to publish can put researchers between a rock and a hard place: either overlook errors or face having your funding slashed. While there is no excuse for dishonesty in science, it’s reproachable that the current system of academic science funding leaves a door open for scientists to cherry-pick results to secure funding, instead of getting funding for whatever they actually find.

https://massivesci.com/articles/science-correction-pains-compounds/

HotCoffee
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HotCoffee
3 years ago
Reply to  Kym Kemp

Sorry Kym.
For some reason that doesn’t happen anywhere else I post. The only complaint is here.
I’ll put quote at the beginning but please be patient as that custom is foreign to me and I haven’t seen it required elsewhere.

Post at 2:56 begins…..4 convincing scientific theories that fooled scientists for decades

Peter Vickers of Durham University writes about four times when scientific theories appeared to be correct, but were far from reality.

How would that be me?

11:15 begins with

snip

Even if just scrolling by the red links are obvious and I assume, one paragraph in, a reader decides if it’s interesting enough to continue.

Are you sure people are that confused? I guess I thought they were smarter than that.

That being said I will do my best (only here at your site) to remember to put Quote first.
You do realize even blogs will repeat a news story and give credits at the end.

Sorry they are long, sometimes it takes more than a sentence to convey the intended message of a writer.
If someone is interested enough to read it all the way through why would they be disappointed that I wasn’t the writer?

I post for information, not impersonation.

researcher
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researcher
3 years ago
Reply to  HotCoffee

It makes a big difference especially if someone wants to reply to the post. I’ve done that a couple of times before, thought someone was writing in the first person and started asking a bunch of questions. All you have to do is write –

From this article;

and then put the web page address of the article, underneath

and then the article. That way you don’t have to mess with quotation marks

Rod Gass
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Rod Gass
3 years ago
Reply to  researcher

Yes researcher.

This being an informal conversational site, separating quotes from opinion is a good idea. I really go to a few different sites for the opinion. But I also read a couple sites for the “truth, facts, and knowledge.”

I tend to follow the dogma of choosing to be highly skeptical of what I uncover. Not so much because truth is evasive, but because our written language on the internet can get horribly chopped and abbreviated. Oftentimes there’s not enough time nor room to express everything necessary.

********************************************************

Kym Kemp and HotCoffee,

We all benefit because you guys make a huge effort to keep things between the lines. You both are saddled with an extra helping of responsibility. You care and it comes through in your stuff. Neither of you can claim that “ignorance is bliss.” Instead knowledge is heavy lifting.

Screwed Sideways
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Screwed Sideways
3 years ago

In Clinical Practice, we know to repeat testing when results do not match the clinical picture.

Believe me, it hardly matters these days, since the bosses won’t let the “provider” treat the patient as the provider sees fit, since the boss is worried about the “legal exposure” and the “Government Blowback” much more than the boss is worried about the “patient outcome”…

And when the Physician becomes completely hobbled by management and the whims of government, the physician is useless.

Like Dr Frankovich, who is forced to deliver the messages of our corrupt and incompetent elected leaders…

Useless physicians can’t attract patients, in places like Humboldt, since our patients demand decisive treatment: Drugs, strong drugs, drugs that work! Doctors with decisive treatments, make money, and attract patients, like Connie Basch…

Since we have no prescription which our government currently approves, and which appears to be effective, we are on our own! And we don’t need an “Advocate” either, no, what we need is a vaccine, a working Antibody Infusion, and, a government that backs the right horse, instead of the garbage like Hydroxychloroquine and Remdesavir, which have no effect and are as useless as a hobbled physician!

We need to spend our resources on effective treatments, and on research, not on testing symptom-free people and on crappy little hospitals in the middle of nowhere… $4 million for Jerold Phelps? $2.3 million for UIHS? $4 million for Fall River Mills? WHY?

It’s all a deception, a bait-and-switch, until the real treatments and vaccines come online! Dr Frankovich hasn’t a clue what to do, and if she did, she wouldn’t be allowed to implement!

Trump wants to be re-elected, and we are all being scammed by our evil government! Biden is no better, and you better believe that Biden led the charge to tax Social Security Benefits during the Reagan Administration, and that he wants to gut Social Security just as badly as Trump does!

These candidates are carefully selected for their slots in history by the people with the money and the real power, and it doesn’t matter at all who is elected!

Demand efficacious treatment from the government, and, stop being distracted by politics, BLM, Facebook, Twitter and all the rest! It’s just a smokescreen to distract the masses until the next phase of the master plan is cued…

HotCoffee
Guest
HotCoffee
3 years ago

I’m not going to forget those Guide Stones, and we still don’t know who commissioned them….HC

QUOTE

Georgia Guidestones
Monument in Georgia, United States

The Georgia Guidestones is a granite monument erected in 1980 in Elbert County, Georgia, in the United States. A set of 10 guidelines is inscribed on the structure in eight modern languages and a shorter message is inscribed at the top of the structure in four ancient language scripts.
Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones
..

Screwed Sideways
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Screwed Sideways
3 years ago
Reply to  HotCoffee

Hey, how’s that working out for you, Mr Scientist?

mlr the giant squirrel in Eureka
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mlr the giant squirrel in Eureka
3 years ago

I’ve got a daily cocktail of zinc, selenium, magnesium, calcium, B3, and C that imparts immunity to covid. Haven’t caught it since I started on this daily regime.

Rod Gass
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Rod Gass
3 years ago

Thanks for the update squirrel.

My daily regime of a gram bowl of Humboldt Sungrown with a 12 oz. Pale Ale seems to be working for me.

Oh crap, does this make us both scientists?

The Great Reset is not a great restart.
Guest
The Great Reset is not a great restart.
3 years ago

The Great Reset, Is not a great restart.

Does not matter which team is in the conductors chair, the trillion dollar infrastructure that has been put into place Will inevitably end up at your door.

. https://www.weforum.org/

. https://www.weforum.org/focus/coronavirus-covid-19

Ceya Darwin
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Ceya Darwin
3 years ago

Report a Health Order violation. Download the HDDS#GESTAPO AP now.