Should There Be Safe Places to Shoot Heroin/Take Opioids in Humboldt?

Drug paraphenalia

By Conneec7 from Wikicommons

People in Humboldt County die from drug overdoses at twice the average rate as the United States as a whole.  And this isn’t a recent development. We’ve been dying at twice the national rate from drug overdoses for over 10 years.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that compiled the county level map below, we have some of the highest overdose death rates in the nation.

CDC map of us drug overdose by county

CDC map of us drug overdose by county. To use the fully interactive version, click here and select the dashboard COUNTY TRENDS.

Assemblywoman Susan Talamantes Eggman (a Democrat from Stockton) is proposing a new bill (AB 186,) that will, according to the Sacramento Bee, “authorize governments in eight counties to test “safe injection sites” in areas with heavy opioid consumption.” One of those counties is Humboldt. Another is Mendocino.

In these “safe injection sites,” adults could bring the illegal drugs they had purchased elsewhere and use them in a place with emergency care and clean needles available. They could do so without being subject to prosecution.

According to the Sacramento Bee,

…[R]esearch on these facilities in other countries has found they reduce overdoses and steer more people toward treatment by having health care providers on hand who can administer the opioid-blocking medication naloxone and refer visitors to services.

“It’s treating addiction as a public health issue and getting people help rather than criminalizing it,” Eggman said.

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90 comments

  • Are you fucking kidding me?

    • Black Tail Addict

      That’s exactly what I was thinking.

    • I haven’t fact-checked the article, but as our reporter isn’t prone to posting fake news, I’d say that sadly, no, they’re not kidding. There really are people who think the government should provide a place for people to bring their random impure street drugs and consume them. At least if they provided the drugs it’d actually do something to put the dealers out of business…

      • You are right. This is missing the components that work with these programs in foriegn countries. That is government supplied drugs to eliminate the street market and having treatment/ job program requirements. A space to do these drugs just creates an extra market for dealers to exploit.

        • Shep, you missed the point. Drugs provided eliminate the dealer/dealing.

          • Umm, how did you conclude he missed the point, when he explicitly stated that point? He said “That is government supplied drugs to eliminate the street market”. That sure reads equivalent to “Drugs provided eliminate the dealer/dealing” to me. The press release, however, says “adults could bring the illegal drugs they had purchased elsewhere”.

          • sharpen your pencil

            Anon, looks like you missed the point…

      • I think that if this is correct info , while at first I was appalled after reading The full article this may turn out to be a good thing . A lot of people are looking for help and these safe houses will give them direction and help some of them get off , help others from Overdosing . Eventually maybe even a few dealers will go down .

      • Actually we teeter between 3-4 times the national average of overdose.

    • Unfortunately, this County and most of Northern CA already is a mostly uncontrolled environment where people support themselves by selling drugs to others. You could easily call Humboldt County a place where it is safe to do drugs, and mostly, to buy and sell them. If people want to kill themselves, they will. Drug addicts may seek death, but all to often they don’t find it. I would support giving pure drugs to addicts, if they would accept treatment and diversion when they hit bottom. It would be safer to give oral morphine, than to allow someone to shoot up street-strength heroin-like substance. The cost of treating Hepatitis C, HIV, and related debilitative conditions which follow addiction in surviving addicts, far surpasses the cost of giving oral narcotics. Where this has been tried, addicts can resume mostly normal lives, and be encouraged to seek diversion and rehab.

    • In SoHum we could call it Measure WTF. We could tax property owners to support it!!!

    • Some compassionate comments here ,wow !The Majority of opioids deaths are due to prescription .Doctors ,pharmaceuticals need to be accountable ..insite in Vancouver Canada is a example of a open door fix clinic .800 addicts a day are supervised at a cost to taxpayer of 3 million a year.This idea however is a non starter for a county hundreds of million in debt.

      http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/11/world/americas/wus-canada-drug-safe-haven/

  • Great, so they can live to shoot up longer at tax payers expense .Whats next,a home your aloud to rob or a street your aloud to drive drunk on??!!

    • Data shows that there is a higher rate of recovery coming out of a SCS because people are doing it at their pace rather than being forced to go to rehab and meetings.

  • This program works well in British Columbia but let’s start with a methodone program. Addicts who truly want to get clean are successfully getting clean every day. It’s not perfect but it worked for me.

    • It worked for my friend. Now he owns a multi million dollar company.

    • Dave, rock on!! I am glad to hear you found a program that worked for you. From what I read, i got the impression that these “sites” would also be a place for methodone and other treatments options to be offered. Someone on the streets may not have the where-with-all to even know where to go for help. But in a controlled environment, maybe help would be more easily accessible? It’s an interesting question.

  • And so it begins.

    First the fools voted to legalize pot and now begins the campaign to legalize all drugs and soon prostitution.

    That’s the way to lower crime rates, just make everything legal. This country is doomed to fall.

    • I wouldn’t object to legalization nearly as much as to government sponsorship of a quasi-illegal thing. Its illegality is a large part of why these people harming themselves spreads to their harming society. If they harm only themselves, so be it – natural selection. And I don’t have any problem with prostitution – I don’t see it harming society – it should be legal. But as long as heroin users invariably are or quickly become strongly harmful to others, we absolutely shouldn’t be doing anything to encourage them.

  • The thing about Amsterdam is its beautiful. Walking the quiet roads at night you see all building lights reflecting off the canal waterways. I believe Amsterdam is also “the city of love.” Fact is, it’s beautiful.

    The ugly side is the addicts laying around the streets. I wondered if one was gonna make it through the hour.

    I would think there’s got to be a better way to fix a problem than to give the problem a place to be fixed.

    I suppose more research might help my opinion too. What are the long term results/effects of these programs eksewhere? Do drug crime numbers go down? If so, it’s worth discussing….

  • The assemblywoman from Stockton might want to concentrate her efforts on bringing her city back into fiscal solvency and out of bankruptcy, stopping the rampant crime and murders, and reigning in the corruption of its public officials that got it to this point. Stockton is the poster child of a city gone from bad to horribly worse, if you’ve been following the news over the last several years. But it’s nice of her to consider the pressing problems outside of her municipal domain. At least the drought is over.

  • How about we advertise such a site, then toss every single worthless parasite who attempts to use it in jail, and fucking KEEP THEM THERE?

    I don’t think there is anyone who didn’t know heroin is bad for them. They all made a conscious decision to begin using it. And every day they make the decision to keep using it, and not to seek help. If they want to seek help, give them help. If they want to keep being a drain on society, remove them from society.

    • Sorry, but it shouldn’t be illegal to do drugs. If someone wants to do drugs, thats their choice and it should be done in their own home. Fuck providing a place for them.

  • Well, in theory, it sounds great. Let’s treat addictions and mental health problems for what they are … illnesses. In reality, will it work? Sounds like it has been tested elsewhere and the answer is yes. I think anything that gets these people who are suffering off the streets is a bonus for all of us. Think about it. If a person has cancer, do you say “It’s their own fault! Leave them to suffer” ? No, we reach out to them. Illness is illness, and awareness could also lead to more preventative measures for future generations. Ok then, I guess this triggered some buttons in me this morning. Thanks for listening 🙂

    • Most people didn’t choose to get cancer. Except for smokers, of course. Drug users all chose to become drug users. And, to further the analogy, no, I don’t think we should do anything nice for people with smoking-induced cancer, either. You make idiotic decisions, you bear the consequences. It’s not like people are unaware that drugs could be a bad idea.

      The best fix is jail time. In jail, they have minimal access to drugs. By the time they’re out of jail, they won’t be addicted to them any longer. And then long-term community programs and such are a lot more likely to be effective.

    • People don’t choose to have cancer,how dare you compare the two!They do however CHOOSE to do drugs

  • WTG Dave, but truly people who use a needle are usually suicidal. So a safe place isn’t the answer. Most addicts won’t admit they are suicidal, and are all self medicating. Those who seek help realize they want to live, those that don’t just make everyone miserable till they get what they are after…. I am an addict… Addicted to air,water,laughter,and big big big trees. Okok throw food in there too. Safe place…I can think of a million better ways to waste time and money.

  • J. Worthingham Fatback

    B.C., Stockholm, U.K., all huge FAILS, with one group exception-the dopers!

    And Suboxone is later, better , and more efficient than methadone. BUT neither works unless you really WANT to get clean.

  • Oh hell no! It’s not where they’re doing their dope, it’s the after effects, like the robberies to get the next fix after the “safe injection site” the continued stealing from friends and family to get that next fix to get to that safe place, don’t ever give them the carrot in front of the horse! They are strung out and can’t make good decisions in the first place, I had to go to jail to get off my opiate addiction over 15 years ago, not being able to get my next high is what saved my life!! If I had a “safe place” to get high I would be dead by now. Methadone didn’t work for me I just took more and combined it with Norcos and Percocet and called them “cocktails”.
    I’m a full blown alcoholic, drug addict and ex felon, however I have made the choice to not participate in any of those activities in 15 years all on pure willpower and a nudge from the judge, we will never quit until WE are ready, have a great day🤔

    Disclaimer: I fully understand what works for one might not work for others.✌🏼

  • Just that picture make me sick, no friggin way

  • The denial of a single drug addict can defeat the best of intentions and assembling them in groups will only bolster the attitude that “it’s cool”. Good f’ing luck with that.

  • I’m fiscally conservative and somewhat socially liberal. I’m certainly not a Republican but do lean towards Democrat and Independent. Kooky ideas like this give Democrats a bad name overall. I wish they would concentrate on good and progressive ideas we could all get behind that lift all boats, rather than these whacky losers. In this age of Trump, we need some winning alternatives to our side.

    • I’m fairly liberal by most standards. I like renewable energy, fair wages for all who work for them, fuel-efficient or electric vehicles, freedom, free software, and I own a strapon. But I’m not sure this is a liberal/conservative issue. I’m not even sure what kind of people would think this is a good idea.

    • Well said Teddy. What happened to the middle in this country? Class or policy? Preach on!

  • Veterans friend

    Of course. Harm reduction is a proven result.

    • J. Worthingham Fatback

      WHAT? You’ve never heard of “Needle Park?”

      • Ya they closed it every junkie in Europe ended up there….plus where do they get the money for he drugs? They have jobs? Or like most junkies they steal, rob, scam, beg…..Sounds like a good idea but let’s start in Stockton and see how it works….

  • Money for drug abuse treatment or detox would make more sense.

  • The best fix is not to give them a safe place to get high or jail. Jail time does not help an addict, they still long for that fix when they are released. What an addict needs is HELP!! AOD or long term mental health counseling. Not all drug users are idiots, losers or homeless. Some turn to drugs (self medicate) to get away from a problem, to feel stress free, hide from what is really going on in their life.

    • See, I knew someone would say that. Please read the post above from an ex-addict who said jail time was exactly what helped.

  • Yes, but by community endeavors, not govt. Govt created this mess in the first place.
    The use of the delphi technique question in order to draw either a yes or a no conclusion from the public, is disgusting.
    Government should mind their own business and let the people innovate ways to mind their own. Had we of secured this simple principle long ago, there wouldn’t be much to have to fix.
    Yes, return the power to the people, so the people can establish the helpful ways and means.
    No, do not let Govt take more power by handing them the authority to “fix” things.

  • If an addict needs a safe place to get high, they obviously must not have a residence to live, which means after getting high, they are back out on the street. Unless the ‘safe’ place is somewhere where they are confined and not allowed out while on the program, this is a vicious circle. This would work if it was a controlled environment with aftercare and the addicts were not allowed out while on the program, which is ridiculous in itself. Many of addicts in the US are repeat criminals. This proposal only allows them a place to get high, but there is no solid after program to keep them from remaining criminals. All it does is ‘refer’ addict to a program. If they want to get clean, there are options already out there.

  • Lovely Rainy Day

    Humboldt is a fairly tolerant place. Judging from the roundly thumbs-down comments here, I doubt this bill is going to fly very far. In fact, it won’t even have a chance to crash and burn because its wings will never get off the ground.

  • I gotta go where?

    “We’ve been dying at twice the national rate from drug overdoses for over 10 years.”
    Many of us are also twice the national rate further away from emergency services.
    That being said, if this place can also :
    -service pill and smoking addicts, and perhaps heavy toxic-level alcoholics
    -be a “sober up” spot as well, both for walk-ins and drop offs (police or otherwise).
    —not a “dump ’em” spot. much different.
    -be, of course, a source for anti-abuse help
    -and finally, not be a “sterile hole” of un-comfortableness. More wipe down kindergarten and less jail-cell-hospital room. After all, if it gets put in, making it scary is gonna keep it empty.
    I dunno if this’ll work. Having to hop on a bus, to go from Rio Dell to Eureka to shoot up safely, only to be stuck in Eureka due to the lateness of the hour might not be a good solution.

  • There already is the Blue Heron.

  • I am in awe of the compassion on display here.

  • Look the reality is that heroin use is going to continue going up. People want to escape and feel hopeless.

    The cartels are switching to poppy fields, especially now that there is a yeast available that allows you to make heroin from poppy heads directly. It will be the new dangerous labs, heroin labs. It seems a pretty stupid move to announce the news of this yeast, unless youre the company that makes it!
    If anyone has any way to fix our societal woes and help keep people from doing drugs, do tell! In lieu of that we need to look for ways for drug use to stop costing us so much in theft and fees for arrests/jail.

    What would people think of a one year trial basis for a program like this?

    I get the discontent, but in many cities these programs have worked and if theres even a sliver of a chance it could help, shouldnt we try? It cant cost more than arrests and jail costs.
    Ive known junkies and once they shoot up, the majority just stay where theyre at and only venture into town to get another fix. Programs like these often include methadone treatments and needle exchange, which cut down on diseases spreading.

    I think its worth a try, obviously the legal system is failing us here.
    There doesnt seem to be a program for docs to wean folks off pain meds after surgeries, etc. They cut them off cold turkey, which leads many amazing people into the spiral down into heroin addiction. Methadone can really help with that.

    Medi-cal just suddenly stopped paying for a lot of meds,including pain meds. This will lead folks to buy on the streets as well, its cheaper than buying them at the pharmacy. Yes if you are on medi-cal and they stop paying, you can still fill your prescription and pay cash. Sounds like drug dealing to me.

    • I wonder about this. I broke my back and had two major surgeries to repair it. It works better now, but I am left with chronic pain, treated with opioids, minimum doses, paid for by MediCare and MediCal.
      I’ve noticed no difference in this arrangement myself… Is it possible that the harassment you report has another reason?
      In the past (and in another State,) I’ve dealt with religiously motivated pharmacists with twisted attitudes…
      Could be another one of those?

    • No no no. You are misinformed. Genetically modified yeast makes narcotics, no poppy needed. Now everyone can get AFU without needing Afghanistan at all. Or Mexico.

    • Merilyn Ross RPh

      MediCal guidelines pay for 30 units of whatever pain med per 30 days. The patient CAN get more than that if they meet the parameters set forth in the Treatment Authorization guidelines. The pharmacist or doctor can request this TAR by providing the correct diagnosis codes attributing to the pain along with test and treatment history, etc. Just ask before you assume you have to pay cash. Some pharmacies are more cooperative in applying for TARs than others. Independents are particularly good at this service because chains stores are understaffed for the volume of work and don’t want to be bothered with applying for TARs because there is no money to be made for the time spent on it.

      Also, pharmacists are very likely to help the person get coverage for the meds they need to decrease their narcotic use and help them get to programs like suboxone use.

  • It Should Not Just a Place Where People Could do There Drugs safely But a Place That Would Attempt to Lead Them into Rehab, Just Look around the War on Drugs is not Working

  • Shouldn`t we be thankful when they die? They`re no good to themselves or anyone else; are a burden to everyone.

  • Well, if ALL drugs were legalized. And addiction was treated as a health issue (disease), and addicts received treatment instead of jail and prison time, it would be far cheaper than the governmental tact right now. The program could be funded by all the drug war funds, since all drugs would be legal. However, treatment should be mandatory.

    • Safer for us all too. How nice to have a bit of intelligence pop up in what has been an astounding display of ignorance and prejudice. Right on, Wiccad Sister.

  • Just give me a safe place to shoot my guns. After all, guns don’t kill but drugs do.

  • Yep…and when someone OD’s in one of these places, or the result thereof, have the ones that are facilitating all of this held accountable for manslaughter/murder…?

  • Were trying to get rid of this shit,not encourage it. Geeze wtf? Seriously

  • This idea was tested twice in Vancouver, on 80+ hard core, long term addicts. The addicts didn’t have to steal, could hold jobs, were no longer homeless, and their lives turned completely around.
    The problems which ended these test cases can be summed up in the ignorant and hateful comments posted above. af

  • Thinking allowed

    Apparently Vancouver’s safe injection site has helped some addicts generally survive longer. Period. And according to their own stats about the number of times they provided overdose reversing drugs. It has not improved crime stats nor ended overdoses nor reduced addiction rates. Addiction has increased in Vancouver at the same rate as anywhere else. Apparently a study of death records gave no evidence that such safe sites decreased overall addiction deaths.

    There are a few success stories about overcoming addiction but there are no control studies that show whether the same number would have recovered without such programs. It’s a pig in a poke. A very expensive pig in a poke that resists unbiased examination. Those that want it make unverified claims. Those that oppose it do the same. And both are absolutely sure they are right but totally unwilling to do the questionably humane double blind studies on people who are inherently unreliable that prove it either way.

    I think it is likely that it is really a battle of philosophy at government expense rather than a rational system.

  • I am just not certain that the government becoming an ENABLER to addicts
    is the right move.

    More needs to be researched on alternatives.

  • Patrick J Walsh

    The only thing I like about this idea is there would be less syringes scattered all over the streets, where are kids are exposed to them.

  • Next;

    1) The age of consent gets lowered to 14.

    2) Driver’s Licences are available to anyone that can tell the difference between Red and Green.

    3) Words like, “Etiquette, Manners”, and “Personal” if the word is followed by the word “Resposibility”, are stricken from the written language.

  • I thought they had a safe place to shoot up, the bathrooms on the plaza in Old Town. This is why we can’t have nice things.

  • It works well in other countries. They have safe needle exchanges; licenses for prostitutes to not be hiv-infected; social workers available to get people into rehab; free treatment (a lot less costly than incarceration) and dramatically less recidivism rate than we have in the United States. People are going to get high and if they know they’re going to get in trouble for trying to get help, they’re never going to ask for help. Locking people up doesn’t help addiction or reduce crime.

  • No. No No No. We need to go the opposite direction and begin a program of monthly hot shots- providing heroin so pure that it kills these degenerates. Wipe them away. We have a major human overpopulation problem. Of course we should be executing murderers, child molesters, repeat rapists, and thieves but also these degenerate wastes of human life who have chosen to reject life. Allow the junkies to kill themselves. Do not accommodate their terrible choices. Let them die and we will all be better off. And yes, many friends gone this way, a few recovered, helped a few get through the cold turkey sweats so I’m quite familiar. No I’m not a monster. I’m just sick of all the crap, our well-intentioned helpfulness is not helping and their choices are pulling down our society while we stupidly believe we can turn it around through compassion and understanding. Enough!

    • You are one to many on this planet in my eyes.

      • Gazoo- I work, support a family, pay taxes and help out in my neighborhood. I’m a community member providing positive support to those around me who TRY to do better, get better, be better. I live by a set of ethics and I am self-reliant, trying to never take more than I give. But you would have me die and instead support drug addicts and junkies who lie, steal and degrade your county, lead your children into addiction and destroy your community. You might want to check out your own value system and try to figure out where your train of logic got derailed. You’re not compassionate- you are a foolish enabler and a community destroyer.

        • I’m positive you are wrong, but you can’t get off your high horse to recognize that we all bleed the same and deserve to be treated if needed, I walk the walk and talk the talk, I have helped the addicts as I am one myself, I don’t look down on others like yourself. I am an equal not self righteous soul who feels the world owes me. Great description of yourself to bad nobody else sees it

          And I just hope you don’t get hurt on the job, get on painkillers, and your teenage kids don’t get into your meds and get addicted and have to kill off the other drug addicts to survive, you wouldn’t understand how addiction isn’t prejudice, and anyone at anytime can get wrapped up in it, enjoy your perfect world while you have the chance, you’re already putting your kids in harms way raising them in humco, have a great weekend!

  • I just have to say I live with an addict in my life and how dare you people talk bad about people with a drug problem. I live with my sister having gone to rehab and fled with some girl she wants to marry after a month of knowing her. The hurt in my family is unreal but importantly enough is understanding why someone chooses to use drugs. We had a horrible childhood where I had to raise my sister. Irresponsibility was not a choice for me. Her being younger and choosing to start stealing my dad’s norocs and morphine as means to cope was easy for her. Access to drugs starts in the home. If you don’t want your kids to use drugs be good parents and start making sure homes are safe for your children. Lock up your drugs and alcohol. This doesn’t apply to everyone but I don’t think my sister would have started using if she hadn’t had access to drugs at 12 years of age. Another huge realization about heroin is that most people who start using heroin is because they started on opiates such as oxy and Norco.

  • HELL FUCKING NO!!! It’s just going to bring more of them from out of the area… what fucking idiot even remotely thinks this is a good idea!?! They need rehab, not more dope! You fucking dopes!

  • A large percentage of junkies hover around Eureka because that’s where they need to go for social services, Betty Chin, etc…without getting into a discussion of whether these services or a proposal like this one enables or helps, as a Eureka resident I’d sure love to go to Old Town without clutching my purse, seeing people passed out in doorways and watching tourists decide to go back to the hotel instead of spending money because some guy is shooting up by the bathrooms. I do wish our tourist, money making areas weren’t so cozy with the free sandwiches area. Maybe we could bring in some money then to focus on programs to help with recovery or more cops and bigger jails. Whatever your view of a solution is, it probably costs some big tax money. As long as the drug addicts are the ever present staple in this community, people will keep driving and spend their money elsewhere. Maybe a designated drug zone, far from Old Town, would make others a bit more comfortable taking in glorious Old Town and the waterfront.

  • This is a New York Times article which may help clarify the discussion (printed last April.)

    Vancouver Prescriptions for Addicts Gain Attention as Heroin and Opioid Use Rises
    By DAN LEVINAPRIL 21, 2016
    Continue reading the main storyShare This Page
    Photo

    Dave Napio, 55, at a single-room occupancy hotel after receiving one of his three daily drug doses at the Crosstown Clinic in Vancouver, British Columbia. Credit Ruth Fremson/The New York Times
    VANCOUVER, British Columbia — Dave Napio started doing heroin over four decades ago, at 11 years old. Like many addicts these days, he heads to Vancouver’s gritty Downtown Eastside neighborhood when he needs a fix.

    But instead of seeking out a dealer in a dark alley, Mr. Napio, 55, gets his three daily doses from a nurse at the Crosstown Clinic, the only medical facility in North America permitted to prescribe the narcotic at the center of an epidemic raging across the continent.

    And instead of robbing banks and jewelry stores to support his habit, Mr. Napio is spending time making gold and silver jewelry, hoping to soon turn his hobby into a profession.

    “My whole life is straightening out,” Mr. Napio, who spent 22 of his 55 years in prison, said during a recent interview in the clinic’s mirror-lined injection room. “I’m becoming the guy next door.”

    Continue reading the main story
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    Continue reading the main story
    Mr. Napio is one of 110 chronic addicts with prescriptions for diacetylmorphine hydrochloride, the active ingredient in heroin, which he injects three times a day at Crosstown as part of a treatment known as heroin maintenance. The program has been so successful at keeping addicts out of jail and away from emergency rooms that its supporters are seeking to expand it across Canada. But they have been hindered by a tangle of red tape and a yearslong court battle reflecting a conflict between medicine and politics on how to address drug addiction.

    The clinic’s prescription program began as a clinical trial more than a decade ago. But it has garnered more interest recently as a plague of illicit heroin use and fatal overdoses of legal painkillers has swept across the United States, fueling frustration over ideological and legal obstacles to forms of treatment that studies show halt the spread of disease through needles and prevent deaths.

    Canada and some European countries have long permitted needle exchanges and monitored injection sites. Prescription programs like Crosstown’s, for addicts whom replacement drugs like methadone do not seem to help, have been available for years in Britain, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland. All these countries have reported significant decreases in drug abuse, crime and disease.

    But such programs have been stymied in the United States, where overdoses have lately led to 125 deaths per day, by concerns that they would encourage illicit drug use. In February, the mayor of Ithaca, N.Y., was criticized by some Republican officials, rehabilitation professionals and police officers after he proposed to establish the country’s first supervised injection facility.

    • Thinking allowed

      What happened to the other 109 drug addicts?

      Sounds like about the right age for an addict to notice that his habit is killing him and decide to reform. But then, since this is offered as proof that supplying the needs of an addict cures the problems to society they create, why not offered every human whatever they want so they never cause a problem for the rest of the population? Might not leave many who want to work, provide services and pay for this but what the heck. This guy who screwed up his life and probably a number of others along the way deserves saving as much as anyone.

      I think being age 59 did more to save society from him than any program.

  • Fuck no!!!!!!!

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