Notes

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Just a note or two:

Cristina Bauss has written a wonderful new piece based on information from Emma Worldpeace that compares the drug use and death rates of Southern Humboldt youth to those of youth statewide.  The statistics are staggering! Below is just a piece from what Cristina (and Emma) had to say!

“Compared to other Humboldt County census areas,” Worldpeace reported, Southern Humboldt’s youth death rate per 100,000 population is significantly higher – 28.3 to 14.2 [countywide average].” The area with the next-highest numbers – Trinity-Klamath, which includes Hoopa and Weitchpec – had 23.4 youth deaths per 100,000, with Arcata coming in a distant third at 14.5.

In related news, Attorny General Eric Holder declared yesterday that federal agents will ony go after dispensaries and other marijuana distributers when they violate both state and federal law.  In other words, the federal government will start respecting state law.

——————

Note,  if marijuana were legalized, the culture of secrecy would dissipate–no longer requiring regular sacrifices of our young.

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95 comments

  • Wow. Thanks for pointing us to that article. It’s heart-wrenching.

  • Yes, it is indeed gut wrenching. I pray about what we can do to help. We live in such a beautiful place and yet I often feel a pall of darkness. This must be some of that darkness. So sad. I had suspicions that the levels of use and teenage death must be higher here, but I had no idea it was that high. Great piece of work by Emma Worldpeace. Now what do we do about it? -Tj

  • Sophie, I told my son last night that because we live here his chance of dying doubles. I’m not happy with that and

    TJ, I’m planning on seeing what I can do through the group with Emma Worldpeace and in my writing but I’m open to more ideas.

  • Keep an open line of communication going with your kids. Keep the dialogue going.

  • It was one of my primary reasons for leaving the area with my young children in 2000.

    The previous year, 1999 I had printed story after story of young people dying. The high school was offering grief counseling because there was so much mayhem in the students’ young lives. There was an overdose, car accidents, murders, a double murder+suicide, a double suicide, a couple of disappearances, kids jumping a transient and killing him.

    All those incidents did not involve youths, but they all did involve young people, 25 and younger.

    Of course, we wound up back in Humboldt, and one son even wound up in SoHum. So moving didn’t do much good except to disrupt the family. I hope you can find better solutions.

    Sounds like some good reporting from those Bauss and Worldpeace.

  • Okay, so what does this have to do with pot. And yes we should legalize all drugs and let people decide for themselves what to do with their lives. I Think booze and crank have more to do with these deaths than pot. Sometimes it is easy to take a satistic and make it fit your own pet peev.

  • It’s a tragedy all right. (alright? never can remember the correct way to spell that!)

    BTW I don’t care how valuable those buds are, they are just plain ugleeeeeeeeee. I’ve never seen them in person and this is the first photo I’ve seen. Looks like a fungus.

  • Carol, I agree!

    Indie, Bauss is an excellent reporter and Emma is an amazing woman. I’m hoping that with people like them and with others in our community all pitching in together we can change those statistics.

    Tom, You know, I noticed myself that most of those deaths are not attributable to marijuana and there is nothing about marijuana that if it were legal would cause any of this). But, what young people have said, is that the culture of secrecy surrounding the illegality of marijuana causes a great deal of stress. However, another possibility I’ve heard mentioned is that a lack of boundaries in our culture causes this. Both explanations could be true and maybe there is another. What do you think makes SoHum so tragically worse?

    Bluelaker, These are the manicured finished version. They don’t look like that growing. Many people just like the look of the plant. I’ve heard rumors that one of the local garden clubs (the grandma with roses kind) gave them away as door prizes one year because of their beauty.

  • I only lived in SoHum briefly, so I’m obviously no expert, but I don’t think the data you post above describes a unique or even new reality. The problems of the rural parts of our county have much in common with the rural parts of lots of the US — and have for many years. I googled – 1950 teen suicide rates rural urban suburban – and one of the links that came up was a 2003 study (pdf) called Frontier Youth: Living on the Edge. Here is a quote pulled from it:

    In 1987, Greenberg, Carey, and Popper published an article that highlighted regional differences in violent deaths of white youth between 15 and 24 years of age from 1939 through 1979. Six western states had consistently high death rates from all causes, while four northeastern states had consistently low rates. The authors discovered that from 1950 through the 1970s, death rates from all causes for rural youth in Arizona, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, and Wyoming were 40% higher than the national average for males and 56% higher than the national average for females. They also reported that suicide rates during this time period were twice as high in the western states as in the northeast for males and three times as high for females with tremendous variation between communities of similar size and location.

    Rural life seems to be the determining factor, since pot and meth weren’t issues in the 1940s for rural kids. Teens clearly have problems in the county — especially in the most rural parts. Emma Worldpeace has done great work to bring these issues before us.

    My fear is that so many “zero tolerance” and “war on drugs” focused studies (not Emmas) identify drug use as the source of the problems we face and that, to me, ignores the real sources of the problem. I hope we can think of drug use as a symptom and not a cause. My guess for the sources of the problems our teens face would be: 1.poverty 2.the clash of “looking out for your own” rural ethics with the artificial ethics presented by mass media and 3.insufficient governmental return on our tax dollars. Again, my SoHum experience is very limited so I may be missing something, but that’s my two cents.

  • 06em, God, I love blogs. What you have to say really rang true with me. The information you provided gave me a whole new perspective! Tom pointed out that there isn’t necessarily a connection and you pointed out some very pertinent facts backing that up! Thank you! If we as a community are going to change this problem, we need to understand what is really causing it.

  • Kym, thanks for posting the link to Cristina’s article; the statistics are important. 06em, Emma did say that death rates are higher for youths in all rural areas, but even considering this, the numbers for our small area are of concern. She studied only the SoHum Unified School District, not even the whole county.

    As far as the connection between high death rates, substance abuse and pot, I think it’s important to distinguish between pot USE and the pot CULTURE. One of the emergent, recurring themes in Emma’s research was the fact that children in “growing” families are brought up to be silently complicit, distrustful of authority and discouraged from seeking help (there’s a kind of “we can handle it ourselves” attitude). This unwillingness to express concerns is coupled with a “live-and-let-live” approach with regard to other people’s habits. Arguably the most addictive drug discussed was the easy money that pot-growing offered to young people, eclipsing the drive to pursue other goals, and providing disposable income for vehicles, alcohol and other substances. Not to say that’s the inevitable path for Humboldt youth (Emma proves that point!), but for some kids, fast cash is the gateway drug.

  • Kym,

    Thank you! If we as a community are going to change this problem, we need to understand what is really causing it.

    You figure it out yet or are you still thinking about it?

    I wouldn’t worry about it too much, based upon the above “Kato” comment and as we’ve discussed previously, whatever solutions offered so far for this nasty problem amount to nothing more than a Band Aid on skin cancer.

  • Joe, you seem to think Kato is offering a facile analysis? To me, Kato is offering insight that is helping me formulate my opinion and figure out how best to approach the problem. What do you think should be done?

  • Kym,

    By “facile” I suppose you mean superficial? Since I included into that mix previous conversations we’ve had that apparently offered NO INSIGHT into “the problem” I would conclude they were “facile” too. Actually, that information only reinforces my original observations about the cause and extent of the disease i.e., “problem.”

    I noticed that you didn’t respond to my last post on the “When Marijuana Is Legalized …” thread. I wrote that response to help you identify “the problem.”

    What do I think should be done? Identify the disease and quit belaboring the symptoms. So, what’s the problem?

  • Kato wrote: “silently complicit, distrustful of authority and discouraged from seeking help (there’s a kind of “we can handle it ourselves” attitude).”

    I have seen this outside of SoHum in other high-risk children in the county. And other people too. Hell, I sometimes feel this way myself. I think it comes from negative experiences with authority, especially brushes with corrupt authority.

    With kids, I think it comes also from engaging in illegal activity that does not seem wrong, e.g., smoking pot. The leap then is if the law is wrong about this, then what else is it wrong about?

    Or that the law and justice/rightness have nothing in common.
    Or that authority only exists to restrict lives and freedom.
    And that seeking help only involves one in bureaucracy that ADDS to the complications and does not HELP.

    We like to think none of these things are true, but all it takes is a close encounter with corrupt authority (figure, system or both) to realize how much of our security is an illusion and how naive we are to think the basis of our laws is justice.

    But without the structures of those things, we still have to have some way to teach our children ethics and personal integrity.

  • To clarify, I was trying to paraphrase Emma’s study, not formulate my own diagnosis. I agree with you, Indie, that those quoted symptoms are not exclusive to kids from this area, and while they aren’t deadly attitudes, they may inhibit blowing the whistle on out-of-control behavior among peers. What the youth interviewed said -themselves- was that unclear boundaries and a lack of constructive things to do were the biggest “problems”.

  • Joe, I’m sorry I had missed that comment somehow and I went back and responded to it. So the problem isn’t marijuana but what the culture of secrecy and law breaking has begot. I agree heartily that that is a huge problem. Legalizing would seem to be a first step to undoing what has been done.

    Indie, I believe that the injustice of the marijuana laws have led to a lack of respect for authority and boundaries. In some respect this has been wonderful. This culture for a long time has been more tolerant of differences in others and more open to new ways of thinking. I love that part of it! However, this also leads to a throwing of the baby out with the bathwater thinking, too.

    Kato, I’m glad you clarified that. I remember the last being a huge problem when I was a kid and it still is. Maybe instead of offering more of what city kids get we should be trying to offer more of what we have naturally–camping, hunting, fishing, exploring, hiking, etc. What about dances with adults there?

  • That’s exactly what our group is organizing: activities for kids who don’t go in for organized sports but still want the benefits of physical exertion, camaraderie plus outdoor adventure. And a chance for kids to participate whose parents aren’t able to drive them around or provide equipment.

  • Keep me informed. I’ll bet Quinn would like to be involved.

  • Kym,

    Just to make it clear on this thread, I DID NOT SAY, the, “culture of secrecy and law breaking has begot” the problem. I, in fact, said those things, as is youth dying, are mere “symptoms” of the very serious disease that is killing the body. At this point in time, expending all your energy trying to legalize marijuana, to repeat, is like trying to put a Band Aid on skin cancer.

  • So you think the whole justice system is falling down?

  • I have been thinking about this allot and this is what I come up with. One: In studies of alcohol use children from strict families are at greater risk of abuse then kids with family support and with experience around the alcohol issue. 2: Calif. schools are 47th in the nation. (Many of us voted for prop 13). We were no 1 before that. Since we have little or no money, the schools teach to the test which stifles creativity and critical thinking so we give our creative kids drugs i.e. Ridilen etc. which have the major side effect of suicidal thoughts and actions. 3: Our national governments engage in secrecy, in lying, and have as a national policy to attack your neighbor if you think they could be may be a threat. And we have as a national policy the practice of drive by shooting. (Collateral damage when the gov. does it and drive by shooting when a gang does it.
    This all does nothing to explain why son much death in So Hum. But then I can’t explain why Humboldt co. has the highest cancer rate in Calif. Either.

  • The complexity of strands weaving around the high youth death rate makes it difficult to pluck just the one or two most important and say, “Aha, now I know and I’ll work to fix it.”

  • Kym,

    I assume this comment is for me? “So you think the whole justice system is falling down?” I absolutely do not know where you get that idea from anything I said. You posted the subject and I made an observation. Whatever I think is merely my opinion and I’m not into opinions.

    I will tell you this, you are getting close. The problem is a whole lot more deep rooted than just the “justice system,” but you’re getting the idea. Look at what Tom posted. Even he is defining the problem when you look at the totality of what he said. You in your following comment keep picking at the symptoms i.e., “youth death.” Quit thinking like a medical doctor and broaden your horizons.

    By the way, can you tell me what good a justice system is worth when the judges, lawyers and jurists were all raised by criminals, criminals that wantonly defied the “law” because they amorally believed they were entitled? Well, after you identify the “cancerous disease,” please.

  • Tom says,

    This all does nothing to explain why son much death in So Hum. But then I can’t explain why Humboldt co. has the highest cancer rate in Calif. Either.

    Since we have some idea what causes cancers today, perhaps it would be of interest to understand just how much “crap” has been dumped into and onto Humboldt County land and water in the past years by saw mills, loggers, pulp mills, gas service stations, railroads, farmers, nuclear power plants, aerial applications by Simpson Timber Co., Sierra Pacific Industries, LP, PL, Barnum that cover the county, just to name a few. I forget the exact number of sawmills just up Salmon Creek at one time. A bunch.

  • I told my son last night that because we live here his chance of dying doubles.

    I don’t buy that. And I don’t think that pointing at statistics on a chart will throw much light on this subject. Nor do I think that searching for some theoretical one underlying cause will help much either. Each case is individual and needs to be considered in that way. The problem needs to be addressed at the grass roots level, by which I mean the daily reality of the individual, not at the abstract level of this number is larger than this other number and isn’t that scary… etc.

  • Those are some very rough stats being offered. Useful yes, but as Headwrapper notes, not the whole truth.
    There is a confluence of early wealth, a permissive drug environment, hellacious dangerous winding cliff lined roads, and growing up in these planet-perilous times. I remember being depressed about the adult world I was about to enter decades ago. What kind of a future have we created for our children with the materialistic rape of the earth?

    Tho’ pot culture is getting a lot of the attention…it is those drinking stats that got my notice. I would love to know how the death stats compared by category (car accident, suicide, murder, and accidents) to other counties, particularly the wealthier ones. In how many of those deaths was alcohol a factor, pot a factor, more than one substance being used a factor). I better go read her thesis.

    I don’t have answers, but I am glad that there is conversation ongoing.

  • headwrapper
    March 23, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Says,

    Nor do I think that searching for some theoretical one underlying cause will help much either.

    olmanriver continues in the next comment with more,

    “Useful, yes, but, … not the whole truth.” And ends with, “I don’t have answers, but …”

    Spoken like a true Southern Humboldt “experts”! “I DO NOT THINK.” “I DON’T HAVE ANSWERS.” None of which stops these people from trying to obfuscate the truth or those that do.

    There’s absolutely NOTHING “thoeretical” about what’s gone on and what’s happened in Humboldt and surrounding counties for the past 40 years. Its all staring you right in your faces every day. All you need to do is open your eyes and take a good hard look. You might try doing that in a mirror. Of course, that would require a little honesty to accept some responsibility for your part in it.

  • Thanks for sharing an alternative viewpoint Joe. I’ll take your opinions into consideration.

  • headwrapper, I don’t write opinions. Nor do I waste my time speculating on theories. I know it’s difficult for most people to understand the difference. Nevertheless, there is one.

  • Thanks for straightening me out on that Joe. I agree, it is difficult for most people to understand.

  • Joe, I’m lost. I don’t know if I’m willfully not understanding you or just not smart enough. All I know is I have reread the comments on this and the other post and now my brain feels like someone had squeezed it in a big rubberband.

  • I’m with you, Kym. Perhaps Joe could plainly state what he keeps referring to (but never explains) for the benefit of those of us who don’t get it?

  • i think that the rural vs urban argument is the one that should be explored more…..here is why i think more teen deaths occur in rural areas than in urban areas:

    a. most deaths are caused by vehicle accidents. compare rural driving to urban driving: rural kids drive roads with 55 MPH limits, curvy sections, poor lighting, muddy/rainy conditions and very few center dividers. city kids drive straight roads with 25 MPH limits, good lighting, good drainage and lots of center dividers. i think the solution is to teach our kids to slow down and to drive defensively.

    b. rural kids are involved in more dangerous activities than city kids, many of which can lead to death or serious injury. riding quads, dirtbikes, hunting, cutting firewood, doing farm chores and such activites brings much more risk than the controlled environment of the city allows. the only solution i can propose is to keep safety fresh in our kids minds. tell them to be safe everytime they leave the house. also, teach them how to use and maintain tools and equipment properly.

    c. rural kids may have more freedom than city kids. the countryside gives plenty of privacy, while the city offers less concealment for activities such as drinking, which can lead to auto accidents. my solution: keep an eye on your teenager no matter how much of a fight they put up. if they get caught drinking, smell their breath everytime they come in the house.

    d. urban areas are more strictly enforced by law enforcement officials, which may deter some reckless behavior that in turn leads to teen death. my solution: dont rely on the cops to raise your kids, put the fear in them yourself.

    e. urban areas have lower poverty rates, which would explain a lower teen suicide rate. my solution: get off the couch and get a job so that your kid doesnt have to wear ratty clothes to school and you can afford to buy him a baseball glove come summertime. put down the budweiser, turn off the TV, shave your beard, tuck that giant belly into your shirt, walk out of your trailer, and GET A JOB so that your kid doesnt have to be embarassed of his situation!!! how many parents in this county actually get up everyday and work a real job? in the rural parts of this county, it must be under 25%……

  • Kym,

    Lost, Huh? Keep an open mind and you’ll find your way. Since this subject commentary started on your post: When Marijuana is Legalized…Let’s Think Proactively I posted my response there.

    Please note, I wrote my comment before reading Nice’s posting. It wouldn’t have made any difference anyway. My conversation is with you.

  • Joe, you have to realize that in posting to a blog, you leave yourself open to comments from whomever/whoever might pass by. It’s the nature of the thing.

  • Exrepub:

    a. I think city teens get in lots of 55mph+ driving on interstates and other freeways. Although — like you noted — rural teens are driving those higher speeds on less forgiving roadways. Maybe this is why Humboldt has higher car insurance rates than counties with many more drivers on the road. I like your idea of better driver training. It should also be geared toward rural driving. Generic driving rules of the road training doesn’t offer enough for our driving conditions.

    b,c,d For me, these are all of a piece. Strong and communicating families (however you define families) are key. Also key is an available and accessible social services component that can fill in when family is missing from a teens life.

    e. I don’t live in SoHum. Is it a lack of ambition or a lack of jobs that can compete with growing weed or some other factor that is the root of the problem? The sunny-side liberal part of me wants to believe that living wage jobs, readily available in SoHum, would attract all but the most slothful couch potato.

  • Kym,

    I guess some of these people that post to your blog think that they can horn in on our conversation and that somehow we’re obligated to recognize them. I wonder what makes this “06em” or anyone else, for that matter, think I’m so stupid that IHAVE to “realize” anything he or she says? This response is classic of the knee-jerk, uneducated commentary that SO validates many of Joe Blow’s observations. Just so there’s no misunderstanding, I live and die by my own rules. This is the disclaimer on my Blogs:

    Please be aware that the Joe Blow Report speaks for itself. You may or may not agree, but just remember, that is your issue. The Report is offered as a free gift to whomever desires to read it. Please accept it as such. The Report respects the rights of all individuals to be who and what they are. All the same there are consequences for what each individual does and does not do. If the Report stimulates a little thinking, it has fulfilled it’s purpose.

    Joe Blow fully understands that whatever is posted on the Internet or printed in newspapers or spoken on television or on the radio bears the responsibility for being PUBLIC property, albeit sometimes copyrighted. Let’s hope that those Joe observes and reports about understand that as well. In other words, if you do not want to read or hear about someone’s observations, keep quiet! Or if you’re going to stand up on a soapbox in a public place and spout off you’d better be ready for a rotten egg or two.

    Believe me, as you well know, I’ve received my fair share of rotten eggs. So, when people don’t like my choice of words when responding, the Blog Host can delete the insulting “rotten-egg” commentary. That way they won’t have to share in the insult or worry about my defending response.

  • Exrepublican and 06em, you have valid points–I think the poverty level issue is particularly important. I’m not sure that jobs are as easily available as some portray but I think making an effort as parents to provide more than a roof is vital to raising healthy kids. I like the idea of drivers training for country kids. I try to provide it but it wouldn’t hurt to have my teaching reinforced elsewhere.

    Joe, of course you don’t have to recognize what someone else says but when we all post on a blog the nature is that people will respond to what you say. And, that is one of my goals here is to start a conversation between disparate parts of the community–I think talking and listening to different viewpoints help us treat each other better. Feel free to just comment to me but people hopefully are reading and responding to what you say. (ps. I’m still lost though. Maybe if I could just get enough sleep…;>)

  • Kym,

    There’s a big difference between starting a conversation and preaching to someone, specially when your trying to preach to the choir. It becomes rather insulting. It may interest you to know that I’ve had a computer as long as there have been computers. I was on bulletin boards talking to people long before blogs were someone’s dream. And personally, in 1996 I had a rather popular website where I designed a prototype blog that I used for several years. So, do you really want to tell me what the “nature” of blogs are and who and who I cannot recognize?

    For the record, by the time I had formulated my response, Nice had posted again. Since I alluded to him in my comment I did not want you or any of the other readers to misunderstand my comment. I had hoped to post right after your comment. I was hoping to avoid confusion. Despite all indications to the contrary, I don’t live under a rock, nor did I just crawl out from under one yesterday.

    You say, “I think talking and listening to different viewpoints help us treat each other better.” You just might make that a reality when you “connect the dots.” You’ll get no opinions from me.

  • Joe, I’m not trying to preach to you. I (a neophyte at blogging) am certainly not telling you that you don’t understand blogs. I’m telling you that on this blog I encourage people to talk to each other not just to me. I’m sorry if you perceived it differently.

  • Kym says,

    I’m telling you that on this blog I encourage people to talk to each other not just to me.

    You’re “telling” me? Was that NOT my point? If I know the NATURE of Blogs what makes anyone think I need to be TOLD anything about the “nature” of blogs? The inference (perception, if you will) is that I’m stupid. Which, of course, is why I don’t as 06em says: “plainly state what he keeps referring to (but never explains) for the benefit of those of us who don’t get it“?

    If you perceive a duck and I perceive a goose and the truth is its a turkey you and I are never going to communicate the truth to one another. Only at one another, which defeats your stated objective.

    Perception is nice. Words, however, define themselves. It’s the one constant in this mess. So, perhaps, you could tell me what the perception is for rather direct comment that makes it worth a “white hat”?

    suzy blah blah
    March 25, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Here’s a cewl link on how to obtain a stomach-ache
    http://www.lambiek.net/artists/f/fisher_h/fisher_h.jpg

    a tip of Suzys white hat to Ham Fisher
    ox

  • Joe, On Ernie’s blog, post Feb 26, Suzie said something that was more serious than her wont. People teased that she was wearing a 3 piece suit and she asked me if I thought she should wear a white or a black hat with it. I told her that she already wears the prettiest white hat I’ve seen–meaning she’s a good guy.

    Speaking for someone else is fraught with danger as you’ve made clear to me but, I presume she was trying to make a joke about how I was feeling pain trying to understand what you were saying and she was relating your comment to my headache comment. My response was to ask to borrow her white hat–could I be a good guy, in other words. I was beginning to suspect that no matter how much I tried to wrap my tired brain around your words and respond appropriately that you were going to get angry with me. I wanted her white hat so you would see me not as the enemy but as a person who wants to talk even when we don’t agree.

    The following may not be what happened but this is my perception: I feel that no matter how carefully I try to respond and how much I try and respect your words,(and you are an intelligent person so you have a lot to respect–I read your blog obviously I think you have something to say) you are taking offense. I don’t know if I am right but I am feeling beleaguered. “I’m telling you” was not said in a haranguing tone but in an attempt to explain myself. Apparently, I’m not doing that. I’m sorry that you aren’t feeling respected. I’m trying to convey respect to the best of my apparently limited ability.

  • Kym,

    There you go! Perception is truly in the eye of the beholder.

    I was merely showing you how easy it WOULD be to take offense when “perceptions” get in the way of truth. Our intent manifests itself in our message. And thats what makes your stated goal “one of my goals here is to start a conversation between disparate parts of the community–I think talking and listening to different viewpoints help us treat each other better” difficult and fraught with risk. On the face of it, I’d have to say, you’re make pretty good progress.

    What causes offense is when matters get personal. Opinions tend to be personal expressions of the writer or speaker. Emotions tend to cause one to lose perspective. Hence my reason for trying to stay or keep to observations. Perceptions are always ever-present and always seem to make their point. That’s what makes us all unique. Just remember, it’s NOT the understanding thats important. It is the experience getting there; it’s the process of connecting the dots. The fun part for me is that I know you know the answer. All and all, you helped me a lot.

    Well, I learned something about Suzy. She hasn’t been to kind to me in the past. Maybe I’ll give her a pass. Us good-guys have to stick together, you know.

  • Joe, I like this “it’s NOT the understanding thats important. It is the experience getting there” Now if I could just remember that and act upon it! Our behavior manifests our message. Something my sah Bum Nimh (teacher in my martial art) has on her wall is something like “what you are doing is shouting so loudly that I can’t hear what you say.” I keep trying to act my talk but succeeding much less than I would like.

    And Suzy, she likes to poke fun at us all. I know my balloons need popping a lot so I hope she appears here more often.

  • Kym,

    You get lots of stuff and I was wondering if you read my final comment on the other thread?

    To push the envelope just a shade, I said, as you quote above, “it’s NOT the understanding thats important. It is the experience getting there,” do you know why?

    The answer is, your quote above: “what you are doing is shouting so loudly that I can’t hear what you say.” The truth is in what’s being done, “shouting so loudly,” NOT in the words or in understanding the words. Children instinctively understand this.

    It is also the reason why you were unable or unwilling to define or identify the “problem” referenced in these two threads.

  • Well, I learned something about Suzy. She hasn’t been to kind to me in the past. Maybe I’ll give her a pass. Us good-guys have to stick together, you know.

    That is soooo totally an awesome philosophy!! us good guys gotta stick together …to fight for –uh, i mean to fight against …er, um… we need to defeat the uh… Dont tell me the answer Joe, i almost got it… uh lets see, wait a minute its right on the tip on Suzys little tongue LOL –uh maybe if i have another hit of this bananapinapple kush i’ll be able to connect the …

    uh the er… hey, –i’ll get bachacha when and if i do find The Answer but rite now i need to find my hat!!

    oxo
    s

  • Joe, I would say it is because answers can only be applied to one question but how you get to the answer can be applied to many. Yes, I read the comment on the other post but didn’t respond to it as you said “we’ll leave it at that.”

    I believe that taking away someone’s sovereignty (ie right to choose) leads to messes like the current one Humboldt is in with regards to marijuana but rural youth would seem to have more sovereignty that urban but they die in higher numbers. Maybe that is a byproduct of freedom.

  • Kym, did you read this comment above?

    suzy blah blah
    March 28, 2009 at 4:30 pm
    Well, I learned something about Suzy. She hasn’t been to kind to me in the past. Maybe I’ll give her a pass. Us good-guys have to stick together, you know.

    That is soooo totally an awesome philosophy!! us good guys gotta stick together …to fight for –uh, i mean to fight against …er, um… we need to defeat the uh… Dont tell me the answer Joe, i almost got it… uh lets see, wait a minute its right on the tip on Suzys little tongue LOL –uh maybe if i have another hit of this bananapinapple kush i’ll be able to connect the …

    uh the er… hey, –i’ll get bachacha when and if i do find The Answer but rite now i need to find my hat!!

    oxo
    s

    If so, why no comment either to me, to her or in general?

  • Suzy,

    The joy of that piece sounds like water rushing after a rain through spring fields to me.

  • Joe, I’m not sure if you missed my comment. I just wrote it. I’ve had company this weekend and started with the farthest back post last night and every free minute (and some that I should have been doing something else during) and ended up here last a bit ago. I even had to answer yours, go help my little guy, then come back and respond to her. I think I’m caught up now though. I should be outside getting my garden ready for the big Easter party.

  • Kym,

    Well, Kym, its been fun and enlightening. So, we’ll leave it at that. Right now I’m going to try to extricate myself from this little sashay without offending you.

    Your response regarding S. Blah Blah’s comment to or about me that I asked you about was rather disappointing and that’s as nice as I can say it. In fact, it was a NON-response. In view of your lack of candor, your statement regarding your blog, “I think talking and listening to different viewpoints help us treat each other better” is proven to be a disingenuous joke. You seem to have it exactly backwards. First, you might start by treating people better, then maybe you can get around to actually talking to them. Not at or around them when you’re not ignoring them. When it comes to listening, what you’ve shown me, is that consideration is nonexistent.

    You outlined the issue, the various threats to you personally and your community, involving local teenage youth, etc., as a consequence of illegal marijuana. All you can talk about is getting it legalized, as if that’s going to be some miraculous panacea. My question to you was how do you overcome your “problems,” i.e., youth death, etc., caused by the consequences of 40 years of ingrained criminal behavior that wholly permeates your society when everyone, according to you, are simply exercising your sovereign rights to “free choice” when you cannot simply and accurately define the “cause.”

    You and others repeatedly asked me to answer my own question. So, in the end when I saw your true intentions, to demonstrate why such a consideration was pointless, I asked you another simple question related to our present conversation and THEN, in the same breath, gave you “The Answer” so there would be NO misunderstanding. Do you know what? You still didn’t understand, perhaps better yet, accept my explanation. And that, Kym, is why I say you do not listen; why you are unable to connect the dots or experience the truth.

    I frankly don’t give a damn one way or the other whether you or anyone else gets “the answer.” My interest was in seeing if you would or could and if not, why not. The fact is, whether any of you like it or not, you are reaping exactly what you’ve sown. You people daily live with the ever growing threats from the problems you created and are totally clueless how to deal with them.

  • Joe’s comments remind Suzy of a theme found in various fairy tales in which the princess asks her suitors to answer a series of riddles. If they cannot give the answers they must die. Of course she invariably wins.

    It is a metaphor for a destructive intellectual game. But you reap what you sow. This kind of neurotic pseudo-intellectual dialogue inhibits one (like Joe) from getting into direct touch with life and its real decisions. All spontaneity and outgoing feelings are lost.

    Yes, i know, it’s merely Suzy’s opinion, but at least i have an opinion.

  • are simply exercising your sovereign rights to “free choice” when you cannot simply and accurately define the “cause.”

    Why do you quote put free choice in quotations? Do you not believe in freedom? Do you consider freedom to be impractical for modern society? Chairman Mao would have appreciated a voice like yours.

    The fact is, whether any of you like it or not, you are reaping exactly what you’ve sown.

    Bubba Kush?

    You people daily live with the ever growing threats from the problems you created and are totally clueless how to deal with them.

    Ah, I see the nature of your argument. “Shame on the people.” Hillary Clinton used this idea recently to appease Mexico. The argument goes that it is U.S. citizen’s fault for consuming drugs driving Mexico’s gang wars. The Democrats promise to “lower demand” as if that is even a possibility with an unregulated market.

    Prohibition is squarely to blame for prohibition-related crimes. Any other argument is diverting attention from the obvious. I’d like to see you go to Oakland and preach that “you people” are to blame for crack cocaine’s cost to society.

  • Joe, I try to listen– sometimes I don’t understand. I accept that I may not be bright enough to understand but I don’t accept that I’m not trying consciously–whatever maybe happening subconsciously I can’t help–I read and reread yours and other comments in an effort to understand. That I don’t comprehend is something that I feel badly about. I’ve always found it worked to state what I thought someone was saying but I feel when I do that you think that I am willfully twisting your meaning so I quit saying what I thought you were saying. This leaves me only a small amount to say. But, believe me, I do not ignore you. Sometimes I wait to answer you awhile because the easy quick answers I have time at the moment for don’t suit the thought you’ve put into your comments. But I do not ignore you. How would you like me to treat you better?

    Suzy, Like you, I think its important to have an opinion eventually. I am way too often wrong but I cannot act without opinions and theories. Life requires action. And I intend to live.

    Mr. Nice, I was torn by Clinton’s statement. I agree with her that our country’s demand for drugs does lead to problems in Mexico but, like you, I think it is a foolish promise to “lower demand.” The war on drugs has tried to do that for years and has yet to succeed. I don’t no what new avenue there is to try –except repealing the prohibition laws.

  • Mr. Nice, I was torn by Clinton’s statement. I agree with her that our country’s demand for drugs does lead to problems in Mexico but, like you, I think it is a foolish promise to “lower demand.” The war on drugs has tried to do that for years and has yet to succeed. I don’t no what new avenue there is to try –except repealing the prohibition laws.

    They are going to try to lower demand using the same propaganda that lowered demand for coconut oil and steak during wartime… tell people coconut oil is bad for them and tell people that liver is healthier than steak. Today we know that coconut oil is one of the healthiest oils and that liver is just liver, but nobody knew that in the 1940s and 50s.

    This is the information age. The GAO has already blasted the ONDCP for the fact that its commercials have had no impact on drug use and cost millions of dollars to air. Children are not buying that weed really makes someone call their ex-girlfriend 27 times (beer does that). The only people who are apt to believe the new propaganda are adults that rarely use the internet, have barely ever used cannabis, and continue to be afraid of coconut oil.

  • Kym,

    Bless your little heart. You see? I told you, you already knew the answer. You tell me you don’t understand. Then you tell me exactly WHY you don’t understand. See? Wasn’t that simple?

    Why do you ask the question “How would you like me to treat you better?” when you already know the answer. You trying to make a joke? Either way, I don’t have a problem understanding you. Do you think that what S. Blah Blah said to and about me leads to better treatment? You made your point.

    Like I said its been fun, so we’ll leave it at that.

  • Mr. Nice, I’m probably being incredibly naive but, for awhile I’m going to pretend that the new administration might actually try something new. It makes me happy to hope.

    Joe, If I understood everything Suzy had to say. I’d be doing better than Suzy, I bet. I referenced what I understood–the beauty of the music and left the rest alone. If you understood something else than you are doing better than me.

  • Kym,

    In 1999, CNN asked Bush about medical cannabis as Bush said “I believe each state can choose that decision as they so choose.” Bush made his personal feelings clear before he was elected, but nothing happened as a result. Even the naïve voter should be aware that some elected officials abandon their personal feelings in favor of politics especially once they have the job.

    Bush probably smokes weed. This is just the edge I get from the guy. Always cracking dumb jokes, forgetting speeches, and saying things like “choose that decision as they so choose.” Bush even halfway admits that he used to be some sort of alcoholic… so what happened to that? He just smokes weed now? He would never admit that.

    I get the feeling that Obama doesn’t smoke many blunts. He smoked cigarettes, so we know he probably doesn’t have that good of lung capacity. Bush would probably smoke Obama under the table.

  • I understand that politicians have to choose which battles they’re going to fight. I can understand why marijuana legalization might seem to be a low priority. I just wish it wasn’t so.

  • Kym,

    So, its either she’s poking “fun at us all” or you don’t understand any of it. Either way her insulting, ridiculing diatribe and lying accusations stand in good stead, with ONLY positive comments from you, on your blog for everyone to read. And you ask me what you can do to treat me better?

    Her efforts to insult, ridicule and demean me on your blog without any objection from you serves only to indict and expose you. I gave you a chance to repudiate her crap. Under the circumstances, whether you admit to understanding her or not, she says it, you say it.

  • I understand that politicians have to choose which battles they’re going to fight. I can understand why marijuana legalization might seem to be a low priority. I just wish it wasn’t so.

    Vote for someone who cares then. For me, it was a relief to quit basing my opinions on party lines. Now I get to debate with everybody.

    No amount of hope or wishful thinking is going to change a party line politician. If we didn’t know Obama was elitist because of his policies, we should have taken the hint when Jesse Jackson accidentally made certain comments about Obama.

  • Joe, I’m sorry but in Suzy’s comment that you copied I don’t see anything insulting. In the following comment she did say, “This kind of neurotic pseudo-intellectual dialogue inhibits one (like Joe) from getting into direct touch with life.” While not the kindest thing I’ve ever heard said, it doesn’t seem any different than you saying, “First, you might start by treating people better, then maybe you can get around to actually talking to them. Not at or around them when you’re not ignoring them. When it comes to listening, what you’ve shown me, is that consideration is nonexistent.” It’s an opinion that you are entitled to have as is hers. Expressing disagreement and negative feelings are an important part of communication.

    Other than that, she’s just being funny. Being somewhat challenged in the wit department and wanting to err on the side of kindness, I tend not to make comments that might hurt people’s feelings. I’m often troubled by those who do and yet, life would be so sad were we never to have wit. The Humboldt Mirror cracks me up as does Suzy even when I think they are not always kind nor accurate. But life would be so bleak without humor. I thought your lurid marijuana blogger post delicious and wish you would give me permission to paste it here. I’m willing to let Suzy poke fun at me. In fact, in the Humboldt blogosphere it is roughly equivalent to a Saturday Night Live skit featuring a politician–it means you’re somebody worth poking fun at. I’m sorry you’re insulted but, at this point, I call it as free speech and let it go.

    Mr. Nice,
    At this point, I sometimes feel the Libertarian politician is the one most likely to legalize marijuana. (A long time ago I was even registered as a Libertarian right after I gave up my youthful Republican phase.) I try to vote for ideas not parties but the Republicans recently have made that hard.

  • Joe posted the link to the Amy Goodman show with the ex-top cop of Seattle “Citing Failed War on Drugs, Former Seattle Police Chief Calls for Legalization of Marijuana and All Drugs”
    Thanks Joe. http://joeblowreport.blogspot.com/2009/03/follow-up-to-follow-up-about-pot.html

  • I must have been over there reading while you were here commenting. The interview is very good and worth reading. The former police chief impressed me with his honesty!

  • Kym,

    Beg your pardon, Kym. This is an opinion, and a rather sorry one at that:

    Joe, I’m sorry but in Suzy’s comment that you copied I don’t see anything insulting. In the following comment she did say, “This kind of neurotic pseudo-intellectual dialogue inhibits one (like Joe) from getting into direct touch with life.” While not the kindest thing I’ve ever heard said, it doesn’t seem any different than you saying, “First, you might start by treating people better, then maybe you can get around to actually talking to them. Not at or around them when you’re not ignoring them. When it comes to listening, what you’ve shown me, is that consideration is nonexistent.” It’s an opinion that you are entitled to have as is hers. Expressing disagreement and negative feelings are an important part of communication.

    You asked me to tell you what I thought you could do to treat me better. SO I DID. And what do you do? Treat me better? NO. You tell me what I said to do was BS conjecture; “opinion.” That these people have a right to their diatribe. Your justifying these people made your question dishonest and disingenuous.

    Whether you like it or not, what Blah Blah said to and about me is an abusive, lying accusation. I don’t appreciate being told that what I have to say is, and by inference I am crazy, “neurotic,” and that somehow God has endowed her with the powers to tell me that I’m NOT into “direct touch with life.” Defending and justifying that kind of talk is abusive and insulting. In other words, DOES NOT TREAT PEOPLE WELL. It labels and defines you and your blog, regardless of whatever you choose to think or believe.

    In the first place, my conversation was with you, not her. I answered a direct question from you. You make it a practice to NOT answer direct questions when you are not talking “at” me (read any of your comments) or “around” me as demonstrated in your last statement above. You yourself admit that you twist what I say. For obvious reasons. One, you DO NOT listen to what is said. What I said to you, that you quote, is a plain and simple OBSERVATION.

    Now this: “I’m sorry you’re insulted but, at this point, I call it as free speech and let it go.” You would. That’s what people used to tell me that smoked while they were forcing me to breath their death-dealing secondhand smoke. What you don’t seem to understand, Kym, is that you are your own worst enemy. You can tell me our conversation was “neurotic pseudo-intellectual dialogue,” without apology and I’ll tell you that everything you said in this conversation, justifies why the social decay and corruption. Your last post is classic definition. Sorry. — I found out what I wanted; it’s all in the experience.

    What did I want? I wanted to see if you would do the ONE thing that actually allows for honest, true and meaningful communication between disparate peoples.

  • Joe, If you are just interested in a dialogue between us, then ignore what Suzy says and just read my comments. For the record, I don’t think you are neurotic (possibly because I’m not sure that anyone has a clear definition of that word). I do feel that I have to walk on tippytoes trying hard not to offend you personally and that makes my life hard. In fact blogging is not near as much fun anymore and I find myself avoiding it because, I feel that whatever I say gets twisted by you into an attack. I’m pretty sure that when you get through with me my hair will be standing straight up all over my head and I’ve been pretty sure of it through the last few posts. Nonetheless, I keep persisting because you are intelligent and you make me think.

    I have said and shown that I respect your opinion. I do not ignore you. I’m composing damn comments to you when I’m folding the laundry and listening to my son read aloud. That is definitely not ignoring you! Not understanding you, I fully and completely agree is a problem–whether because you are not being clear (which is what I believe) or because I am willfully plugging my ears is open to conjecture.

    I do feel you enjoy engaging in what Suzy calls “an intellectual game.” Yes, I think it is difficult to deal with and sometimes makes me want to bury my head under a pillow and surrender but I’m still here typing comments to you when I should be paying my bills, cleaning my house or writing another post.

    For the record I do not admit to twisting what you say on purpose. I try and repeat what I read. If it is not what you said, then your job in the conversation, as I see it, is to rephrase it and try and explain until my brain can wrap around your words. In my world, you are not holding up your end of the conversation.

    Your world may require different rules but, at least try and see that I am not deliberately thwarting your rules. I haven’t learned them. I hope you are in the same position. I willing to keep trying to learn from you. Are you willing to do the same?

  • I don’t appreciate being told that what I have to say is, and by inference I am crazy, “neurotic,” and that somehow God has endowed her with the powers to tell me
    that I’m NOT into “direct touch with life.”

    Joe, i make observations and share my viewpoint. God has nothing to do with it.

  • Kym,

    I have to admit you are a challenge. Kind of like the one I’ve been married to for 40 years . . .

    Reading your latest comment reminds me of some commentary I read about a man that had a whole lot to do with the way most of the Western World thinks and believes today. I’m not comparing myself to that man, by any means, but the similarities are striking. You can read about him and his difficulties communicating with learned men and just plain ordinary (unlearned) men of his time in the New Testament of the Bible.

    So, was the problem that no one understood him caused by his off-world “rules”? Did he parse his words and speak in riddles? When asked to explain what he said or was trying to teach, did he fail to take into consideration their thick sculls? Their prejudices, biases and bigotry or the fact that some of them hated his guts? Perhaps he wasn’t smart enough to talk to them in the way they needed to understand him? Perhaps he wasn’t meek and humble enough to overcome their self-righteous and self-important beliefs that clouded their minds and hearts? I observed that the only people he explained anything to were those few that came back later and asked him to explain. Do you know what he required of them to begin understanding him when he gave those explanations? It was not faith in him nor was it obedience to him or his rules.

    I ended my last comment by saying: “I wanted to see if you would do the ONE thing that actually allows for honest, true and meaningful communication between disparate peoples.” Do you know what that “one thing” is? If not, then why did you not ask me? That “one thing” is what this whole conversation is about. Yet, nothing!

    So while you deride me for playing my intellectual games and NOT explaining myself well enough to “change your opinion” or make you understand my meaning, I’m here to tell you that, “everything is about something different.” This whole exercise was my offer for you to experience that “one thing.” Until you do that, you’ll never understand anything I have to say anymore than all those people never understood anything Jesus Christ said, told or taught before his death. Perhaps, that’s because it was never about understanding words, his or mine.

    By the way, you might try looking at what I say as an observation rather than an opinion. As long as I make you think, there is hope and progress for us all. My reward is that you make me think and re-think as well.

  • Joe,

    I turned and worked responses in my mind. But I’m throwing them all out and asking then… What is the “ONE thing that actually allows for honest, true and meaningful communication between disparate peoples?”

  • did he fail to take into consideration their thick sculls

    No, Jesus knew that if he could teach his peeps how to walk on water that they wouldnt need a scull.

  • Here’s an interesting post from Friday on the local craigslist:

    http://humboldt.craigslist.org/pol/1105845618.html

    It’s a posting about teen sexual behaviors at Fortuna High and alleged overreaction by the staff. I don’t know anything about the specifics, but the writer of the craigslist post lists a frequency (2 way radio?) at which you can listen in on staff during lunch hour as they “hunt down and arrest every single child who does anything wrong …”

    This is disturbing, if true, and I thought it might add to this thread.

  • Kym,

    On April 3, 2009 at 8:36 pm you posted:

    Joe,

    I turned and worked responses in my mind. But I’m throwing them all out and asking then… What is the “ONE thing that actually allows for honest, true and meaningful communication between disparate peoples?”

    What you just did, is the first step.

  • Joe Klein of Time Magazine: “But there are big issues here, issues of economy and simple justice, especially on the sentencing side. As Webb pointed out in a cover story in Parade magazine, the U.S. is, by far, the most “criminal” country in the world, with 5% of the world’s population and 25% of its prisoners. We spend $68 billion per year on corrections, and one-third of those being corrected are serving time for nonviolent drug crimes. We spend about $150 billion on policing and courts, and 47.5% of all arrests are marijuana-related. That is an awful lot of money, most of it nonfederal, that could be spent on better schools or infrastructure — or simply returned to the public.”

    Kym–there is a lot of support for what you are going through on this thread, we just don’t want to make your dialogue any more difficult so we are staying quiet, as difficult as that has been.

  • Suzy, If his peeps walked on water, I guess they’d be called eye lite.

    06em, I tried to find out more about the Fortuna situation and I couldn’t in the short time I had but the article was excellent and opened my mind to some new ideas on adolescence.

    JOe, Is asking questions rather than positing answers the first step?

    Olmanriver, The amount of money spent on enforcing marijuana laws boggles my mind and as I’ve been researching the history of marijuana in Humboldt I’ve been sickened and cried over the incredible waste of human lives. Marijuana laws have caused so much hardship.

  • Kym,

    Thought we’d lost you . . . Your latest,

    JOe, Is asking questions rather than positing answers the first step?

    It is if your agenda is only about bantering words around or pressing your own baseless opinions. Besides, how can you “position answers” when you admittedly don’t have a clue what the person is talking about? How can you ask any kind of pertinent or relevant question if you don’t FIRST LISTEN to what the person is saying?

    Go back to what I said our conversation is about:

    “I wanted to see if you would do the ONE thing that actually allows for honest, true and meaningful communication between disparate peoples.”This whole exercise was my offer for you to experience that “one thing.” Until you do that, you’ll never understand anything I have to say anymore than all those people never understood anything Jesus Christ said, told or taught before his death. Perhaps, that’s because it was never about understanding words, his or mine.

    So, to answer your question, the simple answer is, “No.” What did you first have to do that was so damned hard to even be ABLE to ask that question? That was the first step.

  • Sorry to any religious people in advance.

    I hardly see how invoking a belief system is supposed to bring everyone together to have a rational discussion.

    2/3 of the people in the world do not follow Christianity. 1/2 of the people in the world do not follow any type of book religion. Even of the 1/3 or 1/2 that do, the fraction of those who consider religion to be important to them is steadily declining. Adherence to religion whatsoever is on the decline as well.

    Major regions of the world where Christianity dominates and an overwhelming majority of people consider religion to be important to them are the United States, U.K./Ireland, Australia, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Russia, and Argentina.

    To be frank, when talking about Jesus bringing disparate people together under a common set of ideals, the only people actually being talked about are colonialist white people. This only applies to what is being said about prohibition cannabis and criminal culture so far as most people involved are likely descendants white conquerers who believe in supernatural beings. This line of reasoning would be much more effective if the topic was why don’t white folks understand the Bible.

  • JOe and Mr. Nice, I wasn’t ignoring your responses but in the hustle of a huge party and a mass of work didn’t post or respond to comments and then when I went back to catch up somehow missed these.

    Joe, I don’t know what I had to do. I feel like I don’t even know what we are talking about anymore. I’m so confused.

    Mr. Nice, I don’t believe in Jesus as god either but I think people look at the world through their belief systems (it is a rare person who doesn’t) so Christians, understandably view questions through the lens of Christ. I find it difficult to share that view but I keep trying to at least see what they see even if I don’t agree on the meaning.

  • Kym,

    Joe, I don’t know what I had to do. I feel like I don’t even know what we are talking about anymore. I’m so confused.

    So, what’s new?

    That was the answer I was waiting for. Birds of a feather always flock together. You finally showed your true colors.

  • I hope they look beautiful but I suspect that you don’t see my colors that way.

    Still trying to converse but feeling like my forehead is bruised, Kym

  • So, what’s new?

    That was the answer I was waiting for. Birds of a feather always flock together. You finally showed your true colors.

    It goes without saying that it is back to the drawing board, fellow traveler. Since I was knee-high to a grasshopper I’ve known that time is of the essence and what you see is what you get. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. You know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Kick your feet up, keep your fingers crossed, and keep your powder dry. In a nutshell, don’t count your chickens before they hatch. A Monday morning quarterback is all candle, no wick. Mark my words: still waters run deep. Needless to say, mind your pints and quarts. That’s just my two cents. Know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em.

  • Kym’s true colors? that must mean like red hair and a black belt… and all the awesome colors of the sunsets and the rainbows and the frogs eye’s reflection, the green green frogs, and the green green leaves and ferns, and all the beautiful colors on the people’s faces, the delicate colors of the wildflowers and her son’s eyelashes, the colors of the redtails and the turkeys and the coyote and the the geese, the true colors of the marijuana and the dark colors of the earth and some more pretty flowers, brilliant orange poppies, and blue whatchamacallits, and the white of the moon and the black of silhouetted branches against a purple sky…

    sorry wrong colors —off with her bruised head!!!

  • Kym said,

    I hope they look beautiful but I suspect that you don’t see my colors that way.

    What makes you think that? You trying to tell everyone how I think?
    And . . .

    Still trying to converse but feeling like my forehead is bruised, Kym

    Instead of trying to put words in my mouth you might first try listening. That way you might not have to keep banging your head against a stone wall.

  • Joe, I’m not trying to tell everyone how you think, I’m trying to tell you how you make me feel you think. In other words, I feel like you are angry at me.

  • Angry?

    To be angry I would need to take something you said or did personally. I try to live by the four agreements and one of them is “Don’t take anything personally.” To continue: “Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.”

    Needless to say, blogging is a place to test one’s convictions. I always “try” to remember, I’m in your house talking. If you can tolerate talking to me the least I can do is try to keep an open mind. Never angry.

  • Alright, you’re not angry at me. Then I feel, you feel, I am (help me out here, I’m feeling my way) hypocritical.

  • What are the other three agreements, Joe?

  • The Four Agreements are:

    1. Be Impeccable with your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the Word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your Word in the direction of truth and love.

    2. Don’t Take Anything Personally
    Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

    3. Don’t Make Assumptions
    Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

    4. Always Do Your Best
    Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.

    http://www.toltecspirit.com/

  • Kym,

    I’m usually accused of BEING TOO BLUNT & POINTED when I talk, write or speak. Rarely ever clever and never beating around the bush. So, if I thought you were hypocritical at this point in our conversation, I’d probably just say so and call it a day.

    If you think or believe you’re hypocritical, then you probably are. It seems we are our own worst enemies. The word I’d use is probably disingenuous. The continuing conversation speaks for itself when you consider your stated goal for people talking on your blog. Remember? This was what you said:

    “… that is one of my goals here is to start a conversation between disparate parts of the community–I think talking and listening to different viewpoints help us treat each other better.”

    Meaningful “conversation” includes actual “talking” and “listening,” NOT just talking and pushing some agenda. More importantly meaningful conversation, dialogue or communication involves something more that makes actual talking and listening possible. That is what I was trying to get at in my April 9th post. To learn what that is, you must first experience it. Your martial arts training should clue you in anyway.

    If you haven’t read the book “The Four Agreements” by Don Miguel Ruiz, I certainly encourage you to do so. The cost is about $15 at the Eureka Mall Border’s bookstore. They had lots of them the last time I was in there. This is another good link, http://www.miguelruiz.com/ — A friend gave me this book a few years ago and was justified in doing so. It turned out to be a worthy gift.

  • Joe, my understanding of disingenuous is not candid, insincere, and attempting to hide something. What do you think I’m trying to hide?

    “… that is one of my goals here is to start a conversation between disparate parts of the community–I think talking and listening to different viewpoints help us treat each other better.”

    I believe there is a huge gap between members of the community. There are those who grow marijuana, those who despise those who grow and there are even splits over how to grow. (As well as disagreements about a myriad of other things.) I would like people to come here and feel safe about speaking about their beliefs so that we might not agree on ideas but we learn to trust the kindness and good intentions of people who believe differently than us. Too often we demonize those who believe differently–myself included. I want to try and be part of changing that.

  • Kym,

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME? This is classic!

    I have looked in many dictionaries, both online and printed and I am unable to fine anything remotely close to “attempting to hide something” as a valid definition of “disingenuous” except the word, “deceptive.” Your question, on the face of it, is itself “disingenuous” and deliberately so. If you were truly genuine and sincere you would have asked me why I thought you were “not candid, and “insincere” instead of continually making false accusations. But, then, you know the answer to that, don’t you?

    Like I said, “So, if I thought you were hypocritical at this point in our conversation, I’d probably just say so and call it a day.” I don’t have to say it, you alread said it for me. You should have quit when you were ahead. I am.

  • halleluiah!

  • I’m usually accused of BEING TOO BLUNT & POINTED when I talk, write or speak.

    People who make that POINT about your writing must be BLUNTED. When I read your posts, I see clichés strung together into riddles.

    Let’s review

    “nothing more than a Band Aid on skin cancer.” This is cliché.

    “What do I think should be done? Identify the disease and quit belaboring the symptoms. So, what’s the problem?” This is a question, a cliché, and another question.

    When talking about your own blog you string clichés together to riddle “Believe me, as you well know, I’ve received my fair share of rotten eggs.” Would “rotten eggs” be posts that are unworthy of keeping in your opinion even though you aren’t in the business of making opinions? Interesting riddle.

    “So, to answer your question, the simple answer is, “No.” What did you first have to do that was so damned hard to even be ABLE to ask that question? That was the first step.” This is more riddle and more cliché. Why is is so damned hard for you to be able to write clearly?

    I have some suggestions for expediting Kym’s acknowledgment of your points on this thread. Stop using clichés to create riddles. Stop making ad hominem arguments such as calling Ernie sanctimonious. Nobody cares about your favorite books, your dictionary definitions, or how smart you think you are. As much of this thread is trying to figure out what you are talking about, explain what you are talking about.

    Regarding the cancer, there are some scary cancer rates in Humboldt which may be related to toxins. Humboldt has been a dumping ground for timber and related industries for a number of decades. Timber industry exploitation might be related to higher than normal cancer rates. I think you at least alluded to this point, so point taken.

    What other blunt points do you have that take a month’s worth of posts to make?

  • Joe, To me …Let me stress that again. TO ME, “not candid” and disingenuous means hiding something –By my definition, if one is not being candid, one is hiding the truth. What I thought I was asking was, “why you thought I was not candid and insincere?” To the best of my knowledge I was not accusing you of anything more than asking me that question.

    I have already noted that we speak and understand differently. I have always thought that if two people with good intentions tried to talk honestly with each other then they would at least come to a respectful disagreement–where they admitted the other’s good intentions. But I find instead that, at least in this case, each person believes they have tried to be honest and open and the other person is deliberately trying to be disingenuous. I’m sorry.

    I will continue to be open to dialogue if you want to keep trying but it does seem rather futile and very sad.

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